Can there be too much grease ??

[j_martin]

Re: Can there be too much grease ??

Correct me if I am wrong ... but this concept goes against the idea of using 'grease buddies" or 'Red eye' kits since these will allows the cavity to fill almost completely ???

The quoted article was about greasing industrial bearings, and talking about pressures up to 10,000 psi. Bearing buddies run at about 3 psi. The other part missed is that the industrial machine spindles often turn at up to 20,000 rpm, vs about 800 rpm for a trailer wheel.

In other words, apples vs oranges. The low pressure grease fixtures work very well, and make maintenance and inspection much easier.

If a cavity is packed tight full of grease, with no where to go, it has to "blow" the seal. Actually, it'll force past the seal and do no damage to it. A Bearing Buddy, or Red Eye maintains a spring load against the grease, allowing the grease to expand without over presurizing the seal. Again, it makes no difference how much "excess" grease is in the hub if it can expand. (against the spring)


hope it helps
John

 

[cgrooves]

Re: Can there be too much grease ??

This thread sure ran wild, hugh?

pecheux does not have bearing buddies, easy lube spindles or easy lube hubs. The chances that he hand packed the hubs with enough grease to blow past the seals are probably pretty slim (if the seals are any good, that is). I recommend taking off the dust caps and removing a tablespoon of grease from each hub so that his neighbor feels better about the job

Seriously......
The main concerns I would have if I were in his shoes deal with mixing old grease with new (possibly incompatable) and not inspecting the bearings to begin with.


I think Don S.?s signature quote sums this thread up pretty well:
?Why is there never enough time to do it right the first time,
But always enough time to do it again??

 

[pecheux]

Re: Can there be too much grease ??

This thread sure ran wild, hugh?

pecheux does not have bearing buddies, easy lube spindles or easy lube hubs. The chances that he hand packed the hubs with enough grease to blow past the seals are probably pretty slim (if the seals are any good, that is). I recommend taking off the dust caps and removing a tablespoon of grease from each hub so that his neighbor feels better about the job

Seriously......
The main concerns I would have if I were in his shoes deal with mixing old grease with new (possibly incompatable) and not inspecting the bearings to begin with.


I think Don S.?s signature quote sums this thread up pretty well:
?Why is there never enough time to do it right the first time,
But always enough time to do it again??

Actualy p?cheux had plenty of time to do it right the first time ... but did not know any better ....

I do now ... bearing buddies are going on those wheels asap. Did a 40 miles run with the trailer today and grease stayed inside ... so I presume the grease seal are in good condition.

Tx y'awl ..

 

[pecheux]

Re: Can there be too much grease ??

The 'Grease Buddies' just entered the garage .... LOL

Tx ... I owe you all.

 

[reelfishin]

Re: Can there be too much grease ??

Its normal for grease to escape out the rear seal when using bearing buddies, if not, the concept would not work. If no grease ever escaped, there would be no reason for ever pumping more grease into the hub to maintain the 3 psi or so of positive pressure. I've never had a trailer with either bearing buddies or red eye hubs or any other lube system that hasn't allowed grease to push past the seals when under pressure. The grease has to go somewhere.
Besides, I'd venture to guess that more than half of the boat trailers around here have enough imperfections in the seal surface from salt water corrosion that they will never seal perfectly. There's no way you can justify replacing a spindle for a leaky seal area. If that were the case, I'd be replacing spindles several times a year. The amount of play in the wheel bearings or lack of preload will also affect how fast the seal lets out grease while the wheel is moving. I actually don't mind the grease splatter that tends to build up on the spindle and rims, it rust proofs the whole works.

I have a 2 year old trailer here that has never seen water, it uses the spindle lube system. The wheel bearings are properly adjusted and its slung grease out the back ever since it was new. When you pump in grease, it fills the hub, thus pushing any water and old grease out the back. The same with any system.

Too much lube can create heat, but only if there is no room for excess grease to escape or expand. On some machines, it can also add to the overall drag created on the drive motors. At highway speeds, this isn't as crucial a concern. Trailer hubs rotate at a relatively low RPM compared to many machines. (Smaller wheels do make for faster hub speeds at any given MPH).

Pack the hubs, pack the bearings, put on new seals, adjust the bearings to a near zero play as you can and all should be fine. Don't pack the dust cap.
On new bearings, I tend to like to install them with a bit of preload if I can, it depends on the bearing retainer nut and cotter pin hole location.

 

[pecheux]

Re: Can there be too much grease ??

Its normal for grease to escape out the rear seal when using bearing buddies, if not, the concept would not work. If no grease ever escaped, there would be no reason for ever pumping more grease into the hub to maintain the 3 psi or so of positive pressure. I've never had a trailer with either bearing buddies or red eye hubs or any other lube system that hasn't allowed grease to push past the seals when under pressure. The grease has to go somewhere.
Besides, I'd venture to guess that more than half of the boat trailers around here have enough imperfections in the seal surface from salt water corrosion that they will never seal perfectly. There's no way you can justify replacing a spindle for a leaky seal area. If that were the case, I'd be replacing spindles several times a year. The amount of play in the wheel bearings or lack of preload will also affect how fast the seal lets out grease while the wheel is moving. I actually don't mind the grease splatter that tends to build up on the spindle and rims, it rust proofs the whole works.

I have a 2 year old trailer here that has never seen water, it uses the spindle lube system. The wheel bearings are properly adjusted and its slung grease out the back ever since it was new. When you pump in grease, it fills the hub, thus pushing any water and old grease out the back. The same with any system.

Too much lube can create heat, but only if there is no room for excess grease to escape or expand. On some machines, it can also add to the overall drag created on the drive motors. At highway speeds, this isn't as crucial a concern. Trailer hubs rotate at a relatively low RPM compared to many machines. (Smaller wheels do make for faster hub speeds at any given MPH).

Pack the hubs, pack the bearings, put on new seals, adjust the bearings to a near zero play as you can and all should be fine. Don't pack the dust cap.
On new bearings, I tend to like to install them with a bit of preload if I can, it depends on the bearing retainer nut and cotter pin hole location.

Thank you for this precious information. Prior to installing the bearing buddies I would like the bearing tension adjustement to be as perfect as possible since someone wrote I would not have to touch em for 15 years ... LOL . The tension nuts on my trailer are six sided only. On one wheel there is a perfect snug fit ... no loose and no pressure. On the other side wheel I either get what seems to me like too much pressure or a bit a loose ... I have chosen to lease at that (bit of loose) My hopefully last question is: should I get an 8 sided bolt to have a snug fit on the wheel that I had to leave some loose in ?? prior to installing the bearing buddies that is ...

When you write "installing them with a bit of preload" do you mean leaving some loose ? or a bit thight ?

Tx

 

[cgrooves]

Re: Can there be too much grease ??

Let's beat this dead horse some more, shall we

Its normal for grease to escape out the rear seal when using bearing buddies, if not, the concept would not work. If no grease ever escaped, there would be no reason for ever pumping more grease into the hub to maintain the 3 psi or so of positive pressure. I've never had a trailer with either bearing buddies or red eye hubs or any other lube system that hasn't allowed grease to push past the seals when under pressure. The grease has to go somewhere.

My bearing buddies have a pressure relief port. When the spring loaded seal inside the bearing buddy pushes too far out, the pressure relief port is exposed to the grease and the grease escapes until the seal slides back in past the relief port again. The 'somewhere' that the grease goes is all over the outside of the wheel & tire usually.

Point is -
Hub seals are not designed to leak. The single lip seals can let water in, but they shouldn't let grease out if they are working properly. The more pressure that is put on that seal from the inside, the tighter it should seal against the spindle. Double lip seals shouldn't let water in or grease out if they are working properly. We all know that it is not a perfect world and damaged spindles and seals as well as rapid temperature changes / pressure differentials allow leaks to occur. I would argue that the 'concept' of bearing buddies is for the excess grease to escape out of the relief ports instead of the hub seals, however.

 

[j_martin]

Re: Can there be too much grease ??

I have a relatively good trailer, and the seal surfaces are a good .020 smaller than specification. The seals work, but are finicky because of low tension.

The next time I tear it down, it'll get repair sleeves. The sleeves are stainless, and are sealed with a locktite retainer fluid that is also liquid tight, so that should put that problem to rest.

When a bit of contamination gets into the seal, and the seal rides up on it, it is normal for a bit of grease to escape, cleaning the surface and resealing it. In rough service, they can get a bit messy. Normally it's not a problem on a boat trailer.

BTW, bra's make a bearing buddy a lot neater. Keeps the mess under cover and you can wipe it out with a rag once in awhile at your convenience.

hope it helps
John

 

[hankll]

Re: Can there be too much grease ??

Reelfishin - I just read through the posts on this subject. I found your comments thought provoking. If what you say about Bearing Buddies, and the rear seal always pushing out grease, then I have been replacing rear seal in the past, for no good reason. I did pump in some grease last July 4th weekend before traveling to a lake destination about 110 miles away. Stopped for gas fillup half way there and checked hubs heat and everything heat wise was fine but one was slinging grease from rear seal. When I got to lake, checked them again, same = no heat problem, and notice no apparent additional grease being slung. I wrote it off to = I put to much in that hub, and it had relieved pressure and was ok. Drove back the whole 110 miles, 70mph most of the way, and got home, and found no excessive heat. Thought I'd take em apart before winter and clean/repack bearings and put new seals and just try not to put to much grease in the "Buddies" this time. Normally I only drive 4-5 miles to our local lake so didn't put the issue in my emergency hopper of things needing to be done right away. Now I'm wondering if I need to worry about it at all.

 

[reelfishin]

Re: Can there be too much grease ??

Let's beat this dead horse some more, shall we



My bearing buddies have a pressure relief port. When the spring loaded seal inside the bearing buddy pushes too far out, the pressure relief port is exposed to the grease and the grease escapes until the seal slides back in past the relief port again. The 'somewhere' that the grease goes is all over the outside of the wheel & tire usually.

Point is -
Hub seals are not designed to leak. The single lip seals can let water in, but they shouldn't let grease out if they are working properly. The more pressure that is put on that seal from the inside, the tighter it should seal against the spindle. Double lip seals shouldn't let water in or grease out if they are working properly. We all know that it is not a perfect world and damaged spindles and seals as well as rapid temperature changes / pressure differentials allow leaks to occur. I would argue that the 'concept' of bearing buddies is for the excess grease to escape out of the relief ports instead of the hub seals, however.

Some of mine have a relief port, some do not. That only comes into play if the spring is completely compressed outward. My point is, that if wheel seals were a perfect seal, then there would never be a need to add grease to the bearing buddy at all, they would be a fill it once and forget it deal. Nearly every one of my trailers have always required a shot of grease after every trip, and I tend to carry a grease gun and give them a shot after every launch, especially on the older trailers. The idea is to purge out any water that may have gotten in before the drive home.

I preload the bearings a few inch pounds when ever possible, it eliminates some impact damage caused by looseness. If I can't get a good adjustment, I either swap the nuts around, try a different washer, or find a different nut.
Over the years I've accumulated quite a selection so this isn't that much trouble for me. Without getting into a long how to pack and adjust bearing explanation, I would say they should be tight. Anywhere from a few inch pounds of preload torque to no more than a few thousandths of an inch play.

I keep dust covers or bras on all of mine, it keeps both the bearing buddy and wheels cleaner.

I've tried the replacement seal sleeves but they only work if the seal area is in good enough condition to hold the sleeve, or if it's not corroded more on one side than the other. I have tried using a seal with a smaller ID with some luck but they still push out grease and if you over pump the grease gun, the seal will dislodge from the hub instead of leaking.

Dirt and normal wear will also groove the seal area, this is the prime case for a seal saver sleeve.

 

[AZMinyard]

Re: Can there be too much grease ??

The rear seal should never let out excessive grease - they are intended to seal (hence the name) the inner hub and prevent grease from escaping. I couple drops on your hub isn't a problem, but excessive grease is SNAFU!

Again, you can find trailer shops to pack bearings for you and some of the more freindly ones will even show you how. I have found that the more industrial places are a third of the cost of RV or boat shops. How much is peace of mind worth to you? How much would a new hub and tire cost if the bearings sieze? For me, $54 (US) once a year is minor - especially in comparison to what I spend on the boat otherwise. Just ask my wife . . .

I drove from Phoenix to San Diego towing a trailer with blown rear seals with temperatures reaching 118 degress outside. The hubs never felt excessively hot (other than the fact that it was 118 outside) but there was grease all over the inside of the rims. Took it to the local shop to have the bearings inspected and repacked. The darn things were pitted and worn like you wouldn't believe. I just happened to have enough (TOO MUCH) grease in there which postponed an accident.

I love these forums and the advice is great. Years of experience are represented from a wide variety of situations. Keep in mind, though, that no one here is standing next to you while you do this. Best to have it inspected at the very least.

 

[pecheux]

Re: Can there be too much grease ??

This dead horse is still kicking ... let's beat it some more ... lol

I did not think this subject would raise so many eyebrows ... and bring so much feedback and ideas.

So in order to give you all a general idea of the final result ... after a final visit to my local boat dealer . here it is:

I did take away the bit of loose in one wheel and put the cotter pin in the following knotch ... leaving a little bit of pressure when turning the wheel ... but not much .. it did turn freely. Then I installed the bearing buddies and pumped grease in them until the blue part was all the way out indication a full situation. Then I took the trailer and boat out for a few miles highway ride and checked the hubs = they were both cool (althought hot here today) and there was no excess grease coming out from the inside seal nor from the bearing buddies ... so things are looking good.

Sooooo ... as per someone who wrote to me that I could forget about taking those wheels off for bearing lubing for another 15 years .... this is year one ... LOL LOL

Tx Y'Awl

 

[GlasV162]

Re: Can there be too much grease ??

Hi all,

I just pulled the hubs on my trailer to inspect / repack the bearings. The last time I did it was 5 yrs. (and about 10,000 miles) ago. The bearings looked great, but the races had small ridges on them. To be on the safe side, I installed new races and bearings.
Does anyone know if the Bearing Buddy Spindle Seals are worth using? Do they actually work? I bought a pair that were supposedly matched to my hubs, but the seal didn't fit snugly on the hub, so I ended up installing new regular grease seals. The concept of the Spindle Seal seems to make sense, but what scared me was the additional parts compared to the conventional seal. To me, the fewer moving parts, the better. Any thoughts?
John

 

[cgrooves]

Re: Can there be too much grease ??

Hi all,
Any thoughts?
John

Yeah. I'd start a new thread if I were you.

(Only reason I looked in here again was because I had previously posted in the thread and saw it moved back up on the 1st page).