Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

[Bondo]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Location: Bonner Springs, KS
Concerning the radiator, it is not an issue of waterflow, it is an issue of running water, be it salt or fresh, through my engine block.

Ayuh,..... What Hull are We playing with here anyways,..??
I see 18' mentioned, but don't find what the hull is,..??

I see you'll be runnin' in Freshwater,... Not much Ocean in Kansas.....
You're wasting to much energy,+ Weight with the closed cooling,...
A SBC run in Freshwater, wintered Dry, will Never have block or head issues because of it, rather than a Closed system...
As young as you are, if you keep the boat til you die, the Block will outlast you.....

For the Cyro treating,... I'd probably go for the vertical shaft,+ All the forward gears....
'course, to remove those parts for Treating,... You gotta take the drive apart,+ put it back together,...
The Speciality Tools, seals,+ whatnots will set you back the price of a New Merc drive,... Not the cheap SEIs...
It'd be cheaper all round to just swap in a New SEI drive every year or 2...

Gotta know what Hull We're talkin' about though...

 

[QC]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Here you go Bondo:

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=352801

 

[wca_tim]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

I agree wholheartedly with Bond-o regarding just considering the sei drive a wear item... You can frag a few of them for what you're talking about spending on having everything done to a drive.. which could still come apart... that's where I ended up after playing...

note that the boat I'm talking about was my first i/o and I was practicing / playing woith it before I buy something I can't afford to make a mistake on.

17 1/2 foot hand laid balsa cored v-hull with a pad., went with a non-balance shaft vortec head v-6 aftermarket roller cam, intake and 4 barrel, etc... first... consistent upper 50's to 60 depending on conditions, etc... wanted more so went with 383 built by a local performance marine engine builder and picked up another 15-20 miles an hour more after all was said and done.

I also agree that there's no reason to spend the money on closed cooling... or especially the weight in small boat - every pound matters...

With a light hull, meticulous maintenence and being careful about things like alignment, checking gear lub, etc... you should be able to get a lot of use out of an alpha drive - or especially one of the aftermarket sei's. I've beat on one of their lowers HARD and it's holding up just fine. I am running a different drive all together now so am not using it...

I might revise your 383 estimate up a little depending on what you're going to do for heads, etc... it would be very wise to account for a forged crank, H-beam rods and forged pistons. if you're going to run it hard for any length of time y, Also a good oil cooler with a thermostat is a must. based on my experience.... standard volume oil pupm, large baffled pan, etc...

 

[Bondo]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Ayuh,... Powder coated Hull,..??

Capt.pointless,...
Paint the hull,.... Find a Merc. 350 SBC/ Alpha drive...
Put it together,+ have Fun....

Now, I don't have a whole lot of experience working with watercraft, especially not anything like this.

You need to get a handle on reality...
A Bravo don't belong on that hull,.. Nor does 400hp In it...

 

[wca_tim]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Here you go Bondo:

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=352801

oh dear....

 

[CaptainPointless]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Ayuh,... Powder coated Hull,..??

Capt.pointless,...
Paint the hull,.... Find a Merc. 350 SBC/ Alpha drive...
Put it together,+ have Fun....

You need to get a handle on reality...
A Bravo don't belong on that hull,.. Nor does 400hp In it...

The powdercoating is just something I'm playing around with in my head, not a hard decision by any means. I see that you have been a long-time contributing member to these forums, so believe me, I respect your thoughts about my build. I am curious though, you say that you a Bravo doesn't belong on my boat, and neither does the engine choice I have -- what is your reasoning? This is in no way meant to sound like I'm egging on a battle of wits. I'm honestly curious why you say that -- given the proper structural reinforcements, there should be no reason that an engine of that size and power would have any issues. What is the problem with using a Bravo 1? The weight?

I do want to say, though, that you are missing part of why I am doing this. The end result is fun, without a doubt. However, for me, more than half the fun of a project is getting it there -- the work involved in the build. Since I don't have any sort of time constraint, I'm free to work as slowly or as quickly as I want, playing with various ideas and solutions to problems.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

-- what is your reasoning?

Ayuh,..... Mainly,... I've built a few...

An early/ mid-90s Merc 350/ Alpha 1, Gen.II out of a donor boat, rebuilt to Whatever you'd like, to a point,...
Will Wake up that little hull in a mind boggling way...
300hp,+ the right Prop,...
It'll be an azz clenching ride that could kill you.... Painted...

I do want to say, though, that you are missing part of why I am doing this. The end result is fun, without a doubt. However, for me, more than half the fun of a project is getting it there --

No,.. Nope,... I've been living it longer than you have.... It's Twice the fun Gettin' there...
That's why I said that......

 

[mcleaves]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

OK, I got really curious about this process as I am not familiar with it. I have done some reading and every time the discussion is always about treating the metals and THEN machining. I suspect that the molecular changes are significant enough to throw off any high tolerance machining that may have been done. I can't say. Can someone elaborate on that?

If so, and if I understand what you intend to do with a SEI drive correctly, taking machined gears and treating them might render them unusable.

The sites I read talked about machining cryo-treated steel for brake rotors pistons, cranks etc. But in all places it was machining them AFTER.

I am NOT stating any facts but asking the question. Can you take high tolerance machined gears and treat them with now changes to the tolerances? I've read about this for all of an hour.

 

[CaptainPointless]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Obviously, I can't actually tell you for sure one way or the other if tolerances are changed enough to make a difference. However, what I CAN tell you is that the great majority of the companies out there that offer this service have it listed directly on their websites that they treat engines, automotive parts, instruments, high-end audio equipment, precision tooling, gun barrels, etc. To me, logic would follow that if this process changed tolerances significantly enough to be measurable (ie: more than a micron or two), that these companies would ONLY list their ability to treat raw materials, not the finished components. Or at the very least make it very apparent that finish machining is required after treatment, something I have not (as of yet) noticed on any of the websites. The thing is, the process is controlled by high-powered microprocessors -- so the idea is that in order to avoid thermal shock and expansion/contraction on a high level, the parts are brought down in temperature VERY slowly, relatively speaking, and brought back to ambient even more slowly, in a painstakingly well-controlled environment.

As an example, check out the website for NW Cryogenics, and click on their "applications" section. If you look closely, they list that they even treat turbochargers -- not something that is easy to have re-machined if it is necessary. Commercial turbos have EXTREMELY tight tolerances that are heavily affected by even the most minor of changes (ie: a few ten-thousandths) in the internal components.

So I guess what I'm saying is, it just seems to me like the changes in the physical size of the treated parts would be so insignificant that it wouldn't require any finish machining.

 

[wca_tim]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

OK, I got really curious about this process as I am not familiar with it. I have done some reading and every time the discussion is always about treating the metals and THEN machining. I suspect that the molecular changes are significant enough to throw off any high tolerance machining that may have been done. I can't say. Can someone elaborate on that?

If so, and if I understand what you intend to do with a SEI drive correctly, taking machined gears and treating them might render them unusable.

The sites I read talked about machining cryo-treated steel for brake rotors pistons, cranks etc. But in all places it was machining them AFTER.

I am NOT stating any facts but asking the question. Can you take high tolerance machined gears and treat them with now changes to the tolerances? I've read about this for all of an hour.

cryo treating has a number of effects on the metal - and it is somewhat divverent for different metals. I'm a little pressed this morning and so don't want to try and lay our such a highly technical subject (I would definately screw it up), but it has the impact of making some metals easier to machine and makes the surfaces tougher for wear purposes. This is accopmplished through changes in morphology providing a harder, tougher surface and a more even composition. Another important aspect for carbon steels is that carbides are precipitated (think graphite) and provide an intrinsic lubricant / wear enhancer.

Cryo treating has been shown very clearly in the engineering journals to have a substantial impact on surface wear especially for carbon steel (such as the gears and bearings in your outdrive) surfaces. The change is permanent. The reduction in resistance will take a very small amount of load off the other portions of the drive, but the bottom line is that if you put too much torque to an alpha drive the shafts and bearing areas (in particular the vertical shafts I think) will flex beyond design specification and things will eventually come apart.

Running good lube is also a HUGE deal. as are the changes in set-up mentioned above. There's also a trick in porting the upper cap to help with foaming of lube in the upper gearcase, but I've not personally done this only been told by a guy that has spent his career building performance engines and drives for boats. After I found out that I can scorch merc synthetic lube black, I switched to redline shockproof gear lube (solid suspension, high temper lube used often in race car differentials, etc..). I did a lot of homework before making the switch. some of the Amsoils and others would also be potential candidates...

fun to play with, but the bottom line is that even if you make a bunch of changes to an antiquated drive, how will you know what works and what doesn't? lots of people thrash tha crap out of stock alpha drives for years before fragging them.

There's a guy that runs the river out here in an older Mariah that has a blown stroked small block in it... and an alpha drive on it. we're talking over 600 horsepower and running in the 90's...

the last point is an important one. what is the hull construction on your boat? I would never have considered overpowering a small boat like mine without carefully thinking about the way the hull was built. The one I have been playing with is a checkmate with a hand laid, balsa cored (adds a lot of strength and stability) hull. Checkmates are nutorious for being overbuilt - never hear of one coming apart that wasn't rotten or damaged from an impact, etc... I don't know anything about the make of your boat or the hull construction, but it is definately worth thinking about...

The bottom design is alsuo a big deal... but that's a whole other topic for another discussion... right now I better get some work done so I can keep buying toys...

 

[mkast]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

One problem I encountered with too much horsepower in a small hull, too much of the hull is out of the water at full throttle. The hull chine is out of the water, nothing for the hull to turn against, if you try to turn the hull at speed, the hull doesn't turn. It feels like the sterndrive wants to roll the hull, not turn it.
Very unique feeling, kind of makes you say, "We won't be doing that again." Trim tabs were added. Now he does "wide" turns using the trim tabs.

 

[CaptainPointless]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Another way to think of the cryo-treatment process is this.

Picture the billions of atoms in the metal as balls with hooks attached to them coming out of all major poles (north, south, east, west, up, and down). See my crude illustration below. The N,S,E,W,U,D markers are representative of the electrons surrounding the nucleus of the atom. They like to be within a basically constant distance from the nucleus.

Now, picture a whole cube made of these balls, and in between each ball, there are springs connecting their poles. These springs all like to be the same length as each other, and each one takes the same amount of force to pull or push. These are representative of the molecular forces between each atom.

So now picture yourself pushing on any of the balls in the cube, any direction. Some of the springs compress, some expand. But ideally, they all want to be where they started. Now you let go of the ball you are pushing on. What happens? It returns to its favorite spot, equalizing the forces of all the springs attached to it.

But imagine that thousands of these balls get pushed around, in different directions, and are not allowed to return to their ideal positions. This is similar to what happens when metal goes from its liquid to solid state, such as casting. Now in between each of those balls, there is a significant amount of potential energy built up in the springs with nowhere to go.

Now picture the last time you broke a tool, say, a hole saw. When that hole saw is spinning around, the metal is heating unevenly, and adding even more stress to the already-stressed atoms in the metal. Because there are some areas with intrinsically more stress than others, they tend to be the weak points, molecularly speaking. So these are the first points in the metal where the "springs" just can't take any more stretching or compression, and SNAP! all of a sudden these atoms are nowhere near each other, and you have a broken tool.

Now, when you cryo-treat that same tool, it allows the molecular structure to relax, temporarily, and allows the "balls" to return to their ideal positions. This relieves the "spring" pressure, and thus the potential energy contained within. Essentially, that potential energy is evenly distributed among the entirety of the molecules making up the tool. When it is brought back to ambient temperature, now the "balls" are locked into their ideal positions. This is why a cryo-treated tool will hold an edge far longer than an off-the-shelf tool.

I don't know if it did or not, but hopefully that made it a bit easier for some of you to understand the cryo-treatment process.

 

[Bronc Rider]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

wca tim, great post.
I do disagree with your statement about balsa cored hulls being stronger. They are weaker, solid glass is much better. The balsa is only put there to save cash on the good stuff, FRP. Here is a link someone posted the other day: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/Fiberglass_Boats.htm It's really just someones opinion but I agree with it. My profession is in industrial FRP. The boat thing is a hobby. I do several stringers and transoms a year for extra cash. At work we make structural parts that can withstand corrosion. We wouldn't core anything we sell to anyone, it will always be weaker and will never truly bond to the glass. When we have down time at work sometimes we work on our boats. Some of the hulls we thought had delamination actually had mushy putty beneath a thin layer of frp. We have taken some of these cored hull boats down to almost the gelcoat to get rid of the coring and mush. Unfortunately, even good brands like checkmate use that cheap method of construction.
I apologize for getting so far off subject.

 

[wca_tim]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

No apology necessary! and great info! I might have qualified that when I went looking for this hull to play with. It's cost effective training / practice before I take the plunge on a 27-30+ foot 90+ mph toy I can't (financially)afford to make mistakes on. I wanted a project and a project price, and was looking for small, light and strong... and it's what i found. 17 1/2 feet long, 2500 pounds (including power and drive). I bought it for 500 including trailer, drive and everything... Once I got it home, took core samples from both inside and out and then completely replaced / rebuilt the stringers and floor. The construction was not anywhere near perfect, but still a lot better / stronger than something that was built with a chopper gun, etc...

now if I were looking at what material to build a boat from scratch from.... that's a whole different question...

my profession is... Polymer chemistry / materials science research...

wca tim, great post.
I do disagree with your statement about balsa cored hulls being stronger. They are weaker, solid glass is much better. The balsa is only put there to save cash on the good stuff, FRP. Here is a link someone posted the other day: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/Fiberglass_Boats.htm It's really just someones opinion but I agree with it. My profession is in industrial FRP. The boat thing is a hobby. I do several stringers and transoms a year for extra cash. At work we make structural parts that can withstand corrosion. We wouldn't core anything we sell to anyone, it will always be weaker and will never truly bond to the glass. When we have down time at work sometimes we work on our boats. Some of the hulls we thought had delamination actually had mushy putty beneath a thin layer of frp. We have taken some of these cored hull boats down to almost the gelcoat to get rid of the coring and mush. Unfortunately, even good brands like checkmate use that cheap method of construction.
I apologize for getting so far off subject.

 

[wca_tim]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

um... actually what you're describing is what happens when metals are heated treated after forging or quenching in order to relieve stress. cryo-treating is a very different process...

Until you get to absolute zero, there are many atoms moving in every material. What happens in cryo treating is something very different than in heat treating. It involves changes in the crystal structure and distribution of regions of crystal structure combined with the precipitation of fine carbide particles. It's much more about converting retained austenite into martensite, and creating an overall more uniform / homogeneous material. The result is much better surface wear properties and higher strength. The homogeneity of the resulting material is also what makes it easier to machine to tight tolerances...

that's probably an oversimplification (not a metalurgist mind you...)...

Another way to think of the cryo-treatment process is this.

Picture the billions of atoms in the metal as balls with hooks attached to them coming out of all major poles (north, south, east, west, up, and down). See my crude illustration below. The N,S,E,W,U,D markers are representative of the electrons surrounding the nucleus of the atom. They like to be within a basically constant distance from the nucleus.

Now, picture a whole cube made of these balls, and in between each ball, there are springs connecting their poles. These springs all like to be the same length as each other, and each one takes the same amount of force to pull or push. These are representative of the molecular forces between each atom.

So now picture yourself pushing on any of the balls in the cube, any direction. Some of the springs compress, some expand. But ideally, they all want to be where they started. Now you let go of the ball you are pushing on. What happens? It returns to its favorite spot, equalizing the forces of all the springs attached to it.

But imagine that thousands of these balls get pushed around, in different directions, and are not allowed to return to their ideal positions. This is similar to what happens when metal goes from its liquid to solid state, such as casting. Now in between each of those balls, there is a significant amount of potential energy built up in the springs with nowhere to go.

Now picture the last time you broke a tool, say, a hole saw. When that hole saw is spinning around, the metal is heating unevenly, and adding even more stress to the already-stressed atoms in the metal. Because there are some areas with intrinsically more stress than others, they tend to be the weak points, molecularly speaking. So these are the first points in the metal where the "springs" just can't take any more stretching or compression, and SNAP! all of a sudden these atoms are nowhere near each other, and you have a broken tool.

Now, when you cryo-treat that same tool, it allows the molecular structure to relax, temporarily, and allows the "balls" to return to their ideal positions. This relieves the "spring" pressure, and thus the potential energy contained within. Essentially, that potential energy is evenly distributed among the entirety of the molecules making up the tool. When it is brought back to ambient temperature, now the "balls" are locked into their ideal positions. This is why a cryo-treated tool will hold an edge far longer than an off-the-shelf tool.

I don't know if it did or not, but hopefully that made it a bit easier for some of you to understand the cryo-treatment process.

 

[mcleaves]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

um... actually what you're describing is what happens when metals are heated treated after forging or quenching in order to relieve stress. cryo-treating is a very different process...

Until you get to absolute zero, there are many atoms moving in every material. What happens in cryo treating is something very different than in heat treating. It involves changes in the crystal structure and distribution of regions of crystal structure combined with the precipitation of fine carbide particles. It's much more about converting retained austenite into martensite, and creating an overall more uniform / homogeneous material. The result is much better surface wear properties and higher strength. The homogeneity of the resulting material is also what makes it easier to machine to tight tolerances...

that's probably an oversimplification (not a metalurgist mind you...)...

But does the material change in terms of dimension at all? To me it sounds like getting a box full of packing peanuts to be better, well, packed! When they are aligned and optimized their volume is less. Hence my interest in what happens when you do this to an already machined gear.. Will that gear truly measure the same? I can see doing it to metal and THEN machining. Brake brake rotors I can see becasue they don't have the tolerances and complicated geometry of a gear.

Just because a shop will dunk it for you doesn't mean it will come out the same as it went in. I'd really like to know for sure.. Especially if you dunk ALL the pieces of an out drive the whole assembly could be too loose or too tight if it does change. I am sure someone has an answer. But again all the places I have read about the process only talk about machining AFTER the treatment, not treating machined parts.. I am not talking about places that will take your money to do it.. They have a conflict of interest!

 

[wca_tim]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

But does the material change in terms of dimension at all? To me it sounds like getting a box full of packing peanuts to be better, well, packed! When they are aligned and optimized their volume is less. Hence my interest in what happens when you do this to an already machined gear.. Will that gear truly measure the same? I can see doing it to metal and THEN machining. Brake brake rotors I can see becasue they don't have the tolerances and complicated geometry of a gear.

Just because a shop will dunk it for you doesn't mean it will come out the same as it went in. I'd really like to know for sure.. Especially if you dunk ALL the pieces of an out drive the whole assembly could be too loose or too tight if it does change. I am sure someone has an answer. But again all the places I have read about the process only talk about machining AFTER the treatment, not treating machined parts.. I am not talking about places that will take your money to do it.. They have a conflict of interest!

dimensional stability is just fine. i would only do the gears and bearing assemblies... strength changes are relatively small compared to surface toughness and wear characteristics...

I did mine myself...

 

[n2ostroker]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

I pick my new to me boat up next month. Today I have a 1986 19.5' Thompson cuddy. Runs 58-60 all day with a mild built 355 and alpha.

Seriously, for what you're talking about doing start with a better foundation worthy of the parts you're putting on it. Or better yet buy a $6-8k turn key boat that will run 60-65mph and have fun. You'll be much happier in the end.

My new boat has a big hp solid roller cam Dart 406 and sits in front of an alpha drive. The drive has almost 1000hrs on it. It's still alive even with 550-600hp in front of it. I wouldn't waste money doing anything to an alpha drive though. Take as it is and realize if you abuse it its going to break. If mine breaks I'll find a Bravo to replace it with. Though in your case don't abuse it I think it would live a long life behind the amount of hp you're talking.

 

[CaptainPointless]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

This may be slightly off-topic based on my original post, but I have an opportunity to pick up a 305 long block (Merc 228) for $75. Looks to be a good deal if it's in good condition. I know what many people may say, that it would be a better option to go with the 350 as originally planned. However, I have heard that a stroked 305 (334) makes a pretty decent amount of low-end torque, and also is a bit better on fuel economy. In addition, I have a large turbo that I am unsure of its specs (I hopefully will be able to find out soon what it is), but if it's a viable option, I will add it to whatever motor I end up using. What are everyone's thoughts?

 

[Bronc Rider]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

I would use the 305 as is and enjoy it. If the 305 needs to be rebuilt I wouldn't bother with it. A junk 350 can be had for less than $75.