Fram oil filters good enough?

wetcandle

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Aug 4, 2005
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Re: Fram oil filters good enough?

I have had a bad fram filter too, a long time ago. Cut it open and it was obvious there was somthing very wrong inside. Now I use Purolators.
 
D

DJ

Guest
Re: Fram oil filters good enough?

Yep, you just pay more for one made by one of the major filter companies (possibly fram!) with a different paint job. No OEM makes their own filters.<br />
Not true, especially Motorcraft. Same applies for Delco. They have different standards. Can't speak for MOPAR and the imports.<br /><br />If it's good enough for the maker of the engine, that ACTUALLY HAS TO WARRANT IT, it's good enough for me. If there ever is a problem, there will be NO questions.
 

ZmOz

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Re: Fram oil filters good enough?

Originally posted by DJ:<br />Not true, especially Motorcraft. Same applies for Delco. They have different standards. Can't speak for MOPAR and the imports.
They're all contracted out to the major filter manufacturers. There's no reason to pay more for a filter just because it has the OEM's name on it, as I said before there are good filters for under $3 at walmart. Pretty much anything but a fram is a good filter...
 

LubeDude

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Re: Fram oil filters good enough?

The filters I have seen latly on GM and Ford when new from the factory are Plain, no lettering on them at all.
 

Boomyal

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Re: Fram oil filters good enough?

Hmmm, interesting. <br /><br />
Summary for Amsoil filter.<br /><br />This filter appears to have very good filtration media and very good flow.<br /><br />Details <br /><br />This filter has solid construction with a robust center tube with perforations and coil spring. It is the best flowing filter in the group of 50 µm average largest pore size filters<br />
Might this be a reflection on the quality of their motor oil as well??? ;) :p
 

Realgun

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Jul 31, 2003
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2,484
Re: Fram oil filters good enough?

No boom it does not.<br /><br />Fram, according to Consumer reports is the best filter for the oil meaning it cleans the oil the best with the least flow obstruction.<br /><br />The only problem is that over time as little as 2 weeks the darn valve will let the presure off and the motor will run dry for a second or two till the presure comes up. This killed a Mitsubishi 3.0L OHC motor in the wifes van. She loved that Van till it started smoking.<br /><br />Personally I noticed that most motors tick on Fram filters so I have switch to purolators.<br /><br />On a side note I called customer service to try and explain the issues to Allied signal. No the Blonde was so stupid... you get the picture. :D
 

rwise

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Jul 5, 2001
Messages
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Re: Fram oil filters good enough?

I just dumped FRAM filters, for the lifter knock, now use NAPA GOLD! No more tick.
 

kenimpzoom

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Re: Fram oil filters good enough?

I use AC filters on my Chevy and Acura.<br /><br />Ken
 

QC

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Re: Fram oil filters good enough?

Originally posted by DJ:<br />
Yep, you just pay more for one made by one of the major filter companies (possibly fram!) with a different paint job. No OEM makes their own filters.<br />
If it's good enough for the maker of the engine, that ACTUALLY HAS TO WARRANT IT, it's good enough for me. If there ever is a problem, there will be NO questions.
DJ is all over this. The other guys have no reason to care. Even if some are made by the same guys(most are), the spec is usually unique. Still, the point is the other guys have nothing to gain by making a good "will fit" filter. Their margins go down and they don't sell any more . . . The OEM would prefer your car keeps running. It's really pretty simple.
 

demsvmejm

Master Chief Petty Officer
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Re: Fram oil filters good enough?

I don't know about now, but Consumer Reports did rate Fram the best. I have used Fram since I was a kid. I am eagerly awaitng the read on those links you guys provided. I am concerned about Fram since they are among the cheapest of the filters out there. When they introduced the two higher grade filters, what happened to the quality of the old orange ones? My wife had an Olds we bought with 75K on it. I tore it down to do a t-chain at 158K(it didn't need it after all, I started the job as maintenance.) 83K miles later the engine had NO sludge or debris in it. I also use Castrol GTX oil exclusively. I like Valvoline, just prefer Catrol. Anyway, Fram used ot be the best in my opinion, but now I am concerned that venerable orange filter is becoming just plain cheap.<br />As for the OEM's filters being made by someone else, yes they most certainly are. yEs the specifications are probably unique, since they have a large qty, narrow application. As for the OEM's caring about the filter's performance, the big three engineer their vehicles to last 10years or 150,000 miles. And their warranty only lasts 36,000. You do the math, they don't care about the filter. OEM parts are not always superior. The parts are engineered with a finite life span, and YES it is to last the life of the warranty, not mush longer. Some fail early, some last longer. In manufaturing and engineering it's all about averages. the average part lasts "X" # of miles.<br /><br />As for the oem filters on the new cars being devoid of labels, that label costs money. Since the engine assembly is done in large batches, the filters only need to be marked in large quantities. Like a box of 100, not individually. That's all about $$$$'s. If they can save $.02 on 100,000 parts, that's another $2000 profit. <br /><br />A bit of trivia, Purolator manufactured the first true oil filter for vehicle applications. And the name is derived from "Pure Oil Later."
 

Skinnywater

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Re: Fram oil filters good enough?

Even if Fram makes a filter for an engine manufacture it will be made to that engine manufactures specifications.<br />A Fram that is made for a Walmart shelf may be a completely different filter than one made for Mopar.<br /><br />As far as a manufacture not caring about their OE parts performance, that's unqualified opinion. Ticking noises, oil pressure problems, leaks, and outright failures surely isn't something a manufacture tolerates from any oil filter.<br />Parts that fail prematurely surely will cost the manufacture plenty in profits. <br />There is currently ample evidence of inferior parts that cause problems that ultimately force a manufacture to extend it's warranty period. This action costs much more than the $.02 it saves on a cheap filter.<br />The average engine lasts much longer than 150k and the manufacture isn't at all afraid to sell additional extended warrantys well beyond 36k.<br /><br />As a person that makes a living working on cars an OE filter is generally more stout, has more substance, or has some additional engineered feature that a bargain filter won't have. I can see it and feel it.<br />Manufactures and Dealerships have enough problems and hardly tolerate problems created by cheap inferior parts.
 

demsvmejm

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Re: Fram oil filters good enough?

I too am a professional who makes my living working on cars and trucks. And my assertion of the performance of OEM parts is not opinion. It is fact, proved by many years of replacing oem parts with aftermarket parts that have had the defects and weaknesses engineered out. And by numerous studies and research conducted by parts manufacturers to prove their products performance when related to OEM parts. Engines do generally last longer than 150K. That is not what I said, what I said was automobiles are engineered to last 150,000 miles or 10 years. This was reported by the local "liberal" media, the same one that broadcasts Rush Limbaugh. The report had sources at the manufacturer's level. I have a 1995 Chevy Blazer (10 years) with 205,000 miles. So that exceeds the engineers.<br /><br />But if you think for one minute that the OEM part is of higher quality or longer lived than a premium aftermarket part, then you are sadly mistaken. The only thing the engineers are told to do is make it cheap. And that encompasses in-warranty failures too. As for selling motorists extended warranties, try getting service under one of those. Sometimes you have no problem, other times it's like pulling hen's teeth. And most extended warranties are not backed by the OEM manufaturer, it's underwritten by a third party "insurance" company. It all comes down to $$$$'s. No question, no debate, profit is the sole motivator. And they all play th elaw of averages, some fail early, some very late, but most fail at XXXX miles, and they cost of the warranties are set accordingly.<br />My words regarding oil filters however was not regarding their quality, it was regarding why they don't have labels from the factory, because it saves money on a relatively unnessary label. And I did say that OEMs may have different engineering specs than the filter manufacturer's own label part.<br /><br />And my position on Fram filters I thought was clear. They used to be first rate. I have never had a problem with Fram filters and have used them my whole vehicle owner life. But since they came out with the two higher level filters, I am concerned about the quality and protection from the orange filter. The Fram sold at Walmart I highly doubt is any different internally than the one you buy at the professional auto parts store, just less expensive. I am concerned that the orange filter is cheaper than it used to be. Just like appliance brands, the name invokes top quality, but the standards of manufacture have changed. I will be changing filters. In my shop I don't use Fram. My supplier tells me the filters they sell me are mid-level WIX. And since this is my reputation on the line, I don't want to take chances. And since it is my suppliers reputation, and my purchases from them on the line, I don't think they would mislead me.
 

demsvmejm

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Re: Fram oil filters good enough?

Originally posted by Skinnywater:<br />As far as a manufacture not caring about their OE parts performance, that's unqualified opinion. Ticking noises, oil pressure problems, leaks, and outright failures surely isn't something a manufacture tolerates from any oil filter.
Granted.<br /><br />
Originally posted by Skinnywater:<br />Parts that fail prematurely surely will cost the manufacture plenty in profits.
This is true.<br /><br />
Originally posted by Skinnywater:<br />There is currently ample evidence of inferior parts that cause problems that ultimately force a manufacture to extend it's warranty period. This action costs much more than the $.02 it saves on a cheap filter.<br />The average engine lasts much longer than 150k...
And this is definately true. No question.<br /><br />But doesn't this:<br />
Originally posted by Skinnywater:<br />Manufactures and Dealerships have enough problems and hardly tolerate problems created by cheap inferior parts.
contradict the previous assertion?<br /><br />The manufacturers are concerned with profits. This includes profit on the cars and trucks they sell today, but also on their reputation to keep customers next year, three years from now. But the major concern is having the vehicle and all of it's parts provide satisfactory service through the warranty period. After that, they don't really care, it's no longer their responsibility. Unqualified opinion, as a professional I have some qualifications, as well as hard learned experience in the daily fight to make my customer's vehicles reliable for another year.
 

POINTER94

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Re: Fram oil filters good enough?

As a manufacturer I can assure you that it is all played on a profit/loss spreadsheet. If an inferior part can save a company 200000 bucks and the increased warranty costs are just 100000 dollars be assured that part will be in that product.<br /><br />Tires on a car are a great example. The OEM tires on a car are almost never the best tires for that vehicle. They are typically noisy, are not particularly durable and if you look at trends, are supplied by one maybe two manufacturer's. Ford now uses continental on almost all their vehicles. It used to be Firestone. Continental is now the best tire manufacturer? Why does GM use Goodyears?<br /><br />As for bulk packing filters to the big three for original installation, the savings could be as much as 5-8%. For those of you who haven't heard the term, it is called accountant driven engineering, and it is for real.<br /><br />Companies are driven by the quarterly sales report and the stock price. The three and five year relationship with the customer is not what they are concerned with. The CEO is only as good as his last quarter and if it is ugly, it all runs downhill. The customer is the one at the bottom. Quality is job one is a slogan not an operating principal.<br /><br />When the liability of cheaper parts outweighes the profits, this includes lawsuits, scratch one vendor off the books. See Firestone lawsuit. It was the ford spec right? Why did ford put it off on Firestone and vice versa. How about all the recalls that occur. These are typically spec'd parts that occured during a CIP. (cost improvement program)<br /><br />Most every component can be improved. Brakes, tires, injection systems, sound insulation, exhaust, stereo, steering, suspension, hardware. Our vehicles create emotional attachments, but they are commodities to the mfg, nothing more. GM would stop making cars tommorrow if they could make bikes and boost profits and the stock price. Sad but true.<br /><br />This is not to say that the vehicles are poorly made or designed but do not underestimate the profit motive. Does anyone remember the pinto, vega, citation, omni/horizon. The Japanese came along and handed the big three their head's on a plate. Remember the chevy tracker is made by suzuki, then why apply a chevy name? It's cheap. Does GM have control over all suzuki's vendors and design changes/modifications, that occur on a weekly basis?<br /><br />All I am saying is don't get caught up in the OEM hype. Some OEM replacement parts are better than the ones they put on the vehicle off the line. Why might that be? 10 bucks on 250,000 units and guess what you have? 2.5 million dollars right to the bottom line. Plus the cost adder for the replacement parts. 10% on 50 bucks is 5, 10% on twenty bucks is 2. What a deal. It is not that they don't care about their customers, they just care about their stockholders more.
 

craze1cars

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Re: Fram oil filters good enough?

As a former auto mechanic who is still very much in tune with the auto industry, I have NEVER seen an engine lubrication failure that was caused exclusively by any particular brand of oil filter. As LubeDude points out, I've seen a couple filters come apart internally (in my cases one was apparently an unmarked generic from a quick lube place, the other was an AC Delco). But even then they didn't cause any damage to the engine itself. If it clogs up, the bypass takes over the the engine is still lubricated. And if it dumps debris into the oil during failure, your properly changed oil will keep any missed debris in suspension. Only when you excessively stretch your oil intervals (20,000 miles plus) will you risk wear and/or lubrication problems...and you can't blame the filter for that.<br /><br />If anyone can provide a history of documented and proven cases of a Fram filters actually failing or causing lubrication failures in any properly maintained vehicle, then I'll change my tune. But until I see that, I will continue to purchase oil filters by price alone. Not by brand name, or how they "look" on the inside, or how they "flow" in lab tests, or what size "media" they actually capture in lab tests. Lab tests and cut-up-the-filter "tests" are not real world street tests.<br /><br />Show me data based on STREET tests that PROVES that a particular filter causes engine problems or accellerated wear in the real world. I've seen this battle waged so frequently in so many different forums it's getting rather old. And every time I ask for this data or proof, even on ASE chat sites full of mechanics and manufacturer reps, I hear nothing but crickets.<br /><br />Therefore, it is obvious that cheap filters work perfectly fine in passenger vehicles.
 

Skinnywater

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Re: Fram oil filters good enough?

As a former auto mechanic who is still very much in tune with the auto industry, I have NEVER seen an engine lubrication failure that was caused exclusively by any particular brand of oil filter.
If you want to use one that is barely sufficient, be my guest.<br />The only "street test" I or the topic starter might need is the 30 plus years of spinning them on and off, touching, smelling, feeling, seeing, hearing, fixing, repairing, maintaining and by coming to my own qualified conclusions based on actual experience.<br />Literally thousands of filters of every shape, size, design, make and cost.<br /><br />Actually the lubrication system is evaluated as a whole. The filter being the cheapest part of it is the most important. <br />It wasn't that long ago most manufactures had severe camshaft and lifter problems due to lubrication issues.<br />Today many manufactures have problems with sludging, another lubrication issue.<br />Then there is the issue of longer commute times and conditions that now qualify as "severe duty".<br />This is a lubrication consideration.<br />Furthermore, there are issues that are confusing the consumer regarding extended maintenence intervals, more lubrication concerns.<br /><br />The major cause of a filter coming apart inside mainly comes from an old filter that is long overdue to be changed. It is usually clogged with debris and oil pressure pushes against the clogged media and ruptures it. An OE has a greater threshhold to resist this failure.<br />It's not a very pleasant thought to have that media plastered against the oil pump pick up screen. An oil change doesn't remedy it.<br /><br />I suppose your arguements regarding bean-counting, personal opinion, or the urge to just plain argue might to some trump what I bring to this question.....but it might not to the topic starter.
 

craze1cars

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Re: Fram oil filters good enough?

Skinnywater, I have no interest in arguing, in fact I fully agree with just about everything you wrote. Especially the part about most filter failures usually failing due to overdue oil changes. The entire post is well written.<br /><br />My position in favor of cheap fiters working just fine certainly assumes adequate oil change intervals and other maintenance habits. I made an assumption that anyone on this site concerned about a particular brand of oil fiter has an understanding of the need for proper oil change intervals.
 

txswinner

Banned
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Apr 24, 2005
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2,326
Re: Fram oil filters good enough?

Take out the guts of the filter, it will work forever.
 

demsvmejm

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Re: Fram oil filters good enough?

Originally posted by Skinnywater:<br />
It's not a very pleasant thought to have that media plastered against the oil pump pick up screen. An oil change doesn't remedy it.<br />
If the filter media ruptures, how will it become plastered to the oil pump pick-up screen? The oil flows from the sump in the pan, into the oil pick-up tube through the pick-up screen. Then it flows intot the oil pump, out of the pump into the filter(typically) out of the filter (through any cooler) into the main journals and the cam journals throught the repective bearings. So how will the filter media get back into the oil in large enough pieces to collect in the pick-up screen? Bearing clearances are typically .001-.005". The filter media would have to flow through the oil passages, through the oil holes in the bearing inserts, through the oil clearances between the bearing inserts and the cam/crank.<br /><br />Doesn't make sense.<br /><br />But the cost/liability analysis by Pointer is dead on. The only way you can dispute his post is if you simply refuse to accept the cold, hard facts. The bottom line is the only consideration. The second, third owner are not of concern to the manufacturer, they don't make any money on them. The only customer consideration the OEM's ahv eis the first customer. And that consideration goes no further than keeping them content through the warranty period so they buy another NEW vehicle.
 
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