Going foamless

logan944t

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Jun 26, 2010
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Re: Going foamless

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Cap removed.




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Closeup of transom -- mostly mush.



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Transom wood removed.



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Deck removed and top of stringer removed with a air cutter. I removed the 1x1 with a prybar. Foam filled the space under the deck and provided a lot of support.



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The foam was saturated and pools of water gathered when I removed it.
 

logan944t

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Re: Going foamless

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Layout of stringers. The center stringer has no wood in it and extends to the bottom of the keel. The center stringer sides are not vertical but curve inward so the bottom of the stringer is more narrow than the top -- a triangle shape. No way I can get a power sander in there --which was the reason I was asking if I could soda blast the crevices.

Center stringer is a little light on the resin. There are places where the foam came thru the roving and other places where sunlight comes thru.
 

Woodonglass

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Re: Going foamless

Ok, so you had foam filled stringers and you want to use the existing sides and re-foamfill them and glass back over them?? I have to say I have no experience with that so, I'm going to advise you to PM OOPS and ask his advice. He is a PRO and he will have the answer I'm sure. I believe in the case of foam filled stringers the foam is just the form for the glass and the glass is what gives the strength. Using the existing channels IMHO will not really save you much and may cause bonding issues. Let's see what OOPS has to say.
 

logan944t

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Re: Going foamless

Nope -- the stringers originally had 1x1's in them tapering to about 1/4" tall near the bow. Im replacing the wood with 8lb foam.
 

Woodonglass

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Re: Going foamless

Excuse me but the pics indicate that your stringers are 3-4" wide and about 1 to 1 1/2 " deep maybe more depending on how much you cut off the top.

YourStringers.jpg
 

logan944t

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Re: Going foamless

Nope 1" --maybe 1 1/16ths wide and at the rear on the transom were 1 1/2" high with staples wood and glass on top. Center stringer is 4 --maybe 4 1/2" wide.
 

Woodonglass

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Re: Going foamless

Ok, I looked at the other pics and the one with the hammer gives a better perspective. Most boats that I have seen with foam stingers and that's not many, have had wide stringers. I'm really pessimistic about what you are wanting to do. Again, I think we should let a PRO chime in here. If it were me, I'd cut the channels out and go back exactly the way I found it. But that's just me.
 

logan944t

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Re: Going foamless

I live longer if someone is pessimistic about what I want to do.
 

jones01m

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May 23, 2011
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Re: Going foamless

I would be curious why the soda blasting wouldn't work to rid the old foam in that concave shape you have there - assuming your spray intensity is turned low?

I don't think those two stubby stringers provide you much longitudinal rigidity. Perhaps you just need them to support the deck, or rather, support the hull by the deck when your crashing through the waves. I tested some HD trim boards that seem to be plenty stiff in compression. Maybe you can fill your stringer cavities with these. (attached link). By the way, that 8lb foam is nice an stiff. Seems like it would work well with that foam belly.

I am certainly not a boat builder, just trying to think through this with you.

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=515488
 

logan944t

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Re: Going foamless

I don't think those two stubby stringers provide you much longitudinal rigidity. Perhaps you just need them to support the deck, or rather, support the hull by the deck when your crashing through the waves.


Those were my thoughts as well. The "bulkheads" were simply 1X 3/4 run thru the center stringer--but not connected to the other side--and fiberglass was draped to the hull. Staples were used to secure the 3/8 deck to the wood. The hull didnt start getting flimsy until after I had all the foam removed--it was still plenty stiff when the stringers were out.


I tested some HD trim boards that seem to be plenty stiff in compression. Maybe you can fill your stringer cavities with these. (attached link). By the way, that 8lb foam is nice an stiff. Seems like it would work well with that foam belly.

Securing the deck to the stringers was a concern I had --if there was no wood in the stringers. The outside edge would be tabbed to the hull so the deck wouldnt move but those pvc strips might be useful ----thank you.
 

oops!

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Re: Going foamless

hi....got asked to look in on this.....

ok....so you are going to place foam in the outer stringers.......right?.....then glass over foam ?

this means your intent is to use the glass as a stringer....(foam it self will not do any thing)

you can do it that way, but you will need a barrier between the foam and the resin.....the resin will eat the foam.. plus...as the foam expands, you will need to find a way to contour the shape to what you need.
if you start messing with the foam during expansion, you will be breaking the bubbles and loosing all structure to the foam) fairing the foam after to achieve structure will be inconsistent, and again, allwoing the bubbles to be broken, thus allowing water logging.

and unless there is heavy carp in the channel, you wont need to sand it.....just clean it so the foam grabs the hull and the stringer sides.

but i foresee a few problems........your stringer height is crucial.....this will be your deck support......expanding foam has no limits,,,,so the height will vary....and you cant compromise on the thickness of the glass over the foam.

if you ground out those channels and used a cardboard tube.....then you would have correct height, and shape....the foam could be injected later, or before the glass wrap.

free floating your deck is not a great idea.......the hull will flex in the middle of the boat, leaving the tabbing as your contact points....this will crate stress in the tabbing area and crazing of the outer gellcoat could occur.

even a few points to screw the deck down would be good.....it would also stiffen your hull.

you mentioned in your first post that you wanted to leave the centre channel free of foam but you only saw 2 layers of roving as hull.

where ever the foam was, that you do not want it to be, needs to be strengthened with 2 layers of 1708 and csm between the sub straight and between the layers.
 

logan944t

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Re: Going foamless

[SIZE=-1][SIZE=-2]Common Applications: This 8LB density foam is extremely hard and rigid, like that of a soft wood. Your fingernail can penetrate its skin, however it cannot be dented by hand. Uses include casting, carving, sculpting, sign making as well as areas where an extremely durable and rigid foam is needed for support. [/SIZE][/SIZE]



Yes-- 8lb foam will be poured into the outer stringer casings that are left. I was careful to cut them from the top --so that the height is still the same. I will add new fiberglass to the casing--leaving spaces for expansion--and when the foam cures I will trim those small expansion areas off which should leave a level stringer. The only time wet fiberglass will touch the urethane 2 part foam is when I glass over the expansion holes.


if you ground out those channels and used a cardboard tube.....then you would have correct height, and shape....the foam could be injected later, or before the glass wrap.

Thats a dam good idea.


free floating your deck is not a great idea.......the hull will flex in the middle of the boat, leaving the tabbing as your contact points....this will crate stress in the tabbing area and crazing of the outer gellcoat could occur.

Yea I dont want to float it. At the very least I would lay down some adhesive ( either PL or poly resin since the underdeck will have a layer of glass on it) but if I thought screws would hold in the 8lb foam/glass of the stringer I would do that.


you mentioned in your first post that you wanted to leave the centre channel free of foam but you only saw 2 layers of roving as hull.

The center stringer had no wood and no foam from the factory--Ive cut access holes and see nothing in there except the bottom of the keel. I think the 2lb flotation foam that was on the outside of the center stringer was enough to keep it rigid. Ya'll have convinced me to put 2lb flotation foam back where it was ( between the stringers) and I will be using the OOPS method for that ( thank you!).

More glass will be put between the stringers before it gets foamed again as well.
 

Yacht Dr.

Vice Admiral
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
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5,581
Re: Going foamless

Why not just put it back together the way it was before ( with wood ) ?

OR...

You could just use SeaCast or something like that. Dribble it in and screed the top..then glass wrap it.

Just trying to help :) .

YD.
 

logan944t

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Re: Going foamless

Transom is gonna be 3/4" marine grade plywood--2 full layers with a 3rd smaller layer in the center where the motor bolts in.


I have a choice of Gorilla Glue, poly resin with csm or epoxy to bond the plywood together. The rest of the project will be done in poly and Im wanting to have opinions on the best way to bond the layers of ply together --NOT the bond between the transom skin and ply.

Ive read so many opinions on this forum and others my head is spinning.
 

Yacht Dr.

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5,581
Re: Going foamless

No.. I was talking about your stringers ..

Why not use Seacast or something to that affect ..Instead of using wood ( which I guess your kinda not liking right now ) or foam .. why not a solid pour in your stringer mold ?

YD.
 

logan944t

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Re: Going foamless

Why not use Seacast or something to that affect ..Instead of using wood ( which I guess your kinda not liking right now ) or foam .. why not a solid pour in your stringer mold ?


Yep -- thats the plan 8lb foam with a new layer of glass--then 2 lb foam between stringers. I looked into seacast --its dam expensive and I already have 8lb foam and glassing materials on hand.
 
Joined
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Re: Going foamless

I don't have that much exprience but from what i do. i found out if you get a hole in the hull for any reason or waters coming in any were you done. you gotta rip every thing out just to patch that hole. my boat with out a foam if i get a hole or something i can just pull the deck fix it and then put the deck back down.
 

Woodonglass

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Dec 29, 2009
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Re: Going foamless

I'd recommend using Titebond III to laminate you Transom pieces. Excellent Waterproof glue. OOPs and YD are two of the best most experienced PROS on this forum. You would be wise to heed their advice. But... It's your boat and you can do as you see fit.
 

oops!

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Re: Going foamless

I don't have that much exprience but from what i do. i found out if you get a hole in the hull for any reason or waters coming in any were you done. you gotta rip every thing out just to patch that hole. my boat with out a foam if i get a hole or something i can just pull the deck fix it and then put the deck back down.

this is kinda correct,,,,,but not entirely sbl.

if the hull is penetrated with a foam boat......the foam acts like a patch....or someone putting duct tape on from the inside of the boat....water does not come in....the foam cells are still good, so it does not water log....

if repaired right away, the repair is relatively simple.
but if left un repaired......especially over the freezing season where expansion and contraction of the water near the foam
the repair is major
 

chriscraft254

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Jun 4, 2011
Messages
2,445
Re: Going foamless

Just food for thought and some questions.

How long do you intend to keep this vessel once restored?.

Do you think all boats with foam have rotten stringers?

Do you not think that if you don't put foam back into the hull areas, that it will give the boat more of an opportunity of sinking quikly if you do punture the hull?

My point is, and don't take offense to this because its not ment that way! Have you ever heard the phrase KISS. It means keep it simple stupid. I have had to remind myself of that exact phrase over the years and it isn't ment to be offensive at all.

Boats in general years ago when your boat was manufacturered did not get built as well as some of the boats today. Not all, but some. The knowledge avalable now based on past experiences in building and failures is very useful in todays building. Remember that when your boat was built it was built by a manufacture that cared basically about selling a boat for profit,nothing more!

What I am saying is when you build this boat back using the experienced builders here like Opps,yd and others, your boat will more than likely be built better than it ever was from the start.

Wood used as stringers is not a problem and is probably one of the easiest ways to build. Seacast, Nida pour and others are other fine examples of materials that can be used.

Foam is an important aspect of a smaller vessel. If you do manage to puncture a hole in the boat, the boat will sink alot faster than if it is not foam filled. Alot faster than you would ever think, like within a few minutes if your lucky. There is a reason it is a requirement on vessels under 20 ft. And there is a reason that alot of boat builders today are adding as much foam as possible in hard core offshore fishing riggs. Positive floatation is a plus!

Sorry for the long wind response that probably didn't help your build any, but sometimes keeping things simple is the way to go.
 
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