Going foamless

[logan944t]

Re: Going foamless

How long do you intend to keep this vessel once restored?.

I dont intend on selling it. I figure I have 25 years of fishing left in me.

Do you think all boats with foam have rotten stringers?

No, Not All Boats Are Like That--- but combine the builders bottom line with owner neglect and Im pretty sure its a good possibility.

Do you not think that if you don't put foam back into the hull areas, that it will give the boat more of an opportunity of sinking quikly if you do punture the hull?

On this boat I have to put the foam back in because its part of the structure. Otherwise I see foam as a possible problem unless there is some thought to keeping it dry ( like the OOPS method). I would rather have foam in the cap--but I can see it being a nessecery evil.

My point is, and don't take offense to this because its not ment that way! Have you ever heard the phrase KISS. It means keep it simple stupid. I have had to remind myself of that exact phrase over the years and it isn't ment to be offensive at all.

Nope no offense taken I understand simple. I like things that are simple and just work year after year.

What I am saying is when you build this boat back using the experienced builders here like Opps,yd and others, your boat will more than likely be built better than it ever was from the start.

Im hoping to do just that --which is why Im sweating the details now rather than later.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Going foamless

I think what we are suggesting as a group is Nix the Foam filled stringers.

You could have had wood or seacast in your stringers and be putting down your deck by now.

If you LOOK at who is posting on your thread then you will know that your not being led astray.

YD.

 

[logan944t]

Re: Going foamless

I think what we are suggesting as a group is Nix the Foam filled stringers.

You could have had wood or seacast in your stringers and be putting down your deck by now.

If you LOOK at who is posting on your thread then you will know that your not being led astray.

No -- Ive never thought that--as a group there must be several hundred thousand hours of experience here with all aspects of boat building and repair. I have the utmost respect for that knowledge. As Ive said before I want to do this once and do it right. Im pretty sure that wood is a proven, stable product. In this boat it lasted 30+ years. But, it does have its downside. This is one of those situations where you expend a huge amount of prep time to do it right .....and then can enjoy it for years. I see other boats using materials other than wood ( admittedly without the years of success) and working.

Using 8lb foam in the stringers was an idea I had ---and then read more about--and it seemed to give all the benefits of wood with no rotting. Ive made a mold in a stringer shape and poured the 8lb foam --just to see its characteristics. I set my truck on it for 8 hours with no denting. It supported 50 lbs over 12" with about 3 inchs of deflection over 2 hrs--and then sprang back into place. But even with all of that--Im not convinced that it would be suitable in the stringers. Im sure it would be with all of the new glass Im gonna be placing on it....but I will decide when I get to that point. Seacast Ive read about and Im impressed....but not the price. Nida bond Im researching today.

The transom is clamped and sitting outside--hardening slowly. Tomorrow I will set it back in the drying room for a day and then apply a layer of resin and csm.

 

[chriscraft254]

Re: Going foamless

No -- Ive never thought that--as a group there must be several hundred thousand hours of experience here with all aspects of boat building and repair. I have the utmost respect for that knowledge. As Ive said before I want to do this once and do it right. Im pretty sure that wood is a proven, stable product. In this boat it lasted 30+ years. But, it does have its downside. This is one of those situations where you expend a huge amount of prep time to do it right .....and then can enjoy it for years. I see other boats using materials other than wood ( admittedly without the years of success) and working.

Using 8lb foam in the stringers was an idea I had ---and then read more about--and it seemed to give all the benefits of wood with no rotting. Ive made a mold in a stringer shape and poured the 8lb foam --just to see its characteristics. I set my truck on it for 8 hours with no denting. It supported 50 lbs over 12" with about 3 inchs of deflection over 2 hrs--and then sprang back into place. But even with all of that--Im not convinced that it would be suitable in the stringers. Im sure it would be with all of the new glass Im gonna be placing on it....but I will decide when I get to that point. Seacast Ive read about and Im impressed....but not the price. Nida bond Im researching today.

The transom is clamped and sitting outside--hardening slowly. Tomorrow I will set it back in the drying room for a day and then apply a layer of resin and csm.

Foam stringers have been used for years in multiple different boats. we are not saying its a bad thing or can't be used, but for the cost of the foam your buying, I would simply use wood, which is so much easier to do imo. The wood or foam is just a structure to make your fiberglass stringers around. the fiberglass is the structural part when done. If using foam there are extra steps to take to insure the glass work is very strong when done. If you incapsulate your wood stringers, they will be good for 30 more years, more if you take steps to not let water sit in the hull or better yet even get to the foam or inside the hull. Most wood that rotts in boats is do to neglect over the years.

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: Going foamless

There can be a simple solution to the whole thing. In the above pic you will see a guide screwed to the wall as a retainer. I simpley snapped a chalk line where i wanted the deck to sit.... again screwed in the guide made the pour and it lifted the deck to the guide..the rest blew out the vent holes easy stuff.

Now i am not at all sure of this but i think a 15' trill hull could be filled with 8lb foam and not require any stringer system..You may want to pm Ondarvr and get his opinon..I will tell you that deck is filled with 8lb and is a hard as rock...One other note on this when you pour in a two part foam under heavy expansion you are gluing the deck and the hull into one unit...Foam is incredibly strong and its adhesion is unlike any glue i have used...As strong as wood glue and screws

 

[logan944t]

Re: Going foamless

There can be a simple solution to the whole thing. In the above pic you will see a guide screwed to the wall as a retainer. I simpley snapped a chalk line where i wanted the deck to sit.... again screwed in the guide made the pour and it lifted the deck to the guide..the rest blew out the vent holes easy stuff.

Now i am not at all sure of this but i think a 15' trill hull could be filled with 8lb foam and not require any stringer system..You may want to pm Ondarvr and get his opinon..I will tell you that deck is filled with 8lb and is a hard as rock...One other note on this when you pour in a two part foam under heavy expansion you are gluing the deck and the hull into one unit...Foam is incredibly strong and its adhesion is unlike any glue i have used...As strong as wood glue and screws

Interesting idea. I know when I made the mold for the 8 lb test stringer---I didnt get enough mold release on one of the sides of the mold. It took a hammer and prybar to get them apart--and I ended up tearing the foam.

 

[jones01m]

Re: Going foamless

...I set my truck on it for 8 hours with no denting. It supported 50 lbs over 12" with about 3 inchs of deflection over 2 hrs--and then sprang back into place. But even with all of that--Im not convinced that it would be suitable in the stringers...

Man I like your style!!!

 

[logan944t]

Re: Going foamless

Man I like your style!!!

I figured the backhoe on the foam was too much.....so I opted for the truck.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Going foamless

If you at least use some care in rebuilding it, it will last for at least the 25 years you plan to use it no matter which products you use, so that's not really an issue. Very few people keep and/or use the same boat for that long though, life and plans tend to change a great deal in 25 years. Just about everybody on this site wants to use the best possible products in the beginning, then they tend to change their mind and use affordable products, but some do stick to the higher cost stuff. In the end it doesn’t make much of a difference because both will last a long time and they end up not using it, or buying something else in a few years.

If you don't want wood in the stringers just leave them hollow, grind down the top edge a little so you have some room for the additional glass that is needed. Drill holes in them so water can easily flow right through. If the hull is too thin to use without foam you can add a layer of glass for additional support, it doesn't take much. You could also add a couple more stringers, this way sheet foam can be used to fill the hull for floatation.

8 lb foam can be used in the hull, but it requires much more foam to supply the same amount of flotation as 2 lb because it’s 4 Xs the weight.

It comes down to whatever let’s you sleep good at night.

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: Going foamless

"life and plans tend to change a great deal in 25 years"

Now that is a TRUE statement. Very good advice. Logan, just so you know, Ondarvr is on of the best Fiberglaass, Gelcoat, Foam experts on this or any other boating Forum. You would do well to take his advice into consideration.

 

[logan944t]

Re: Going foamless

Transom pieces are bonded with poly and a layer of csm in between. I have the entire thing in the drying room for a few days.

I went to use my 4 1/2 grinder to remove the rest of the fiberglass where the transom sets and ---nothing. No worky. So I ordered 2 from HF. In the meantime I will soak the transom in poly--then add a layer of csm and start to sand the rest of the boat in prep to add layers of glass.

 

[chriscraft254]

Re: Going foamless

Transom pieces are bonded with poly and a layer of csm in between. I have the entire thing in the drying room for a few days.

I went to use my 4 1/2 grinder to remove the rest of the fiberglass where the transom sets and ---nothing. No worky. So I ordered 2 from HF. In the meantime I will soak the transom in poly--then add a layer of csm and start to sand the rest of the boat in prep to add layers of glass.

If your looking for a grinder that will last, look into a Hitachi. They are bullet proof.

 

[logan944t]

Re: Going foamless

If your looking for a grinder that will last, look into a Hitachi. They are bullet proof.

I bought 2 cheap ones from HF and paid less than 40$ for them. From other threads Ive read on here the glass eats them. My dewalt stood up to cutting/grinding steel/glass for almost 12 years--Im gonna take it apart and see what went wrong. I have a hitachi drill and its never let me down.


Transom is still in the drying room and will get a layer of csm and resin tomorrow. Tried to test fit it into the space left by the old transom and it seems that 1.5 " is bigger than the old one. Ive also started work on clearing away foam/glass to tab the deck in when I get to that point.

Spent all day yesterday looking for a replacement quick connect fitting for my air compressor. Didnt know there were different shapes--and the 2 that I bought didnt let the chuck in far enough to grab it. So I finally found and old one that I used to pressurize a plumbing system in a house I rehabbed and fit it on the compressor.

Its the details that hold me up.

 

[logan944t]

Re: Going foamless

Im sure it was an oversight --but noone told me the rules to tyvek suits!


1) No beef and bean burrito for lunch. The respiratior doesnt filter methane and the suit blows up like the michelin man Im so glad there were no open flames.

2) No super size diet coke for lunch with the burrito. Tyvek sticks to skin ( Im in florida so wear only shorts under tyvek because of the heat) and it makes it difficult to get off when nature calls---see rule #1 above.

3) Shut off the phone or someone in the house will answer it and deem it vitally important that you talk to the salesman at the other end.

4) Put a sign on the front door announcing that your house is under quarantine. People that you havent seen in 20 years will decide its time to catch up.

5) Its better to run from granddaughters and hurt their feelings rather than try to tell them now is not a good time to hug papa--because they cant envision anytime not being a good time for a hug.

On a serious note--

Sanding the old glass to attach new glass is to give it better bite?

I tried sanding the old glass with a belt sander ( new grinders wont be here till sat) but that started to give me flat surfaces and sanding off way too much. With a 4 1/2" grinder and a flapdisk the surface wont be flat -- but it will be a newly exposed surface. Am I wrong on this?

 

[logan944t]

Re: Going foamless

How does everyone mix their resin?



Ive been mixing mine with a cheap kitchen mixer ( 10$ from walmart). When I look closely at the transom blank ( resin + plywood+csm) I can see bubbles sealed into it. Small bubbles--like you would get in soda. Am I mixing too much or getting too much air involved?

 

[jigngrub]

Re: Going foamless

A paint mixer in a drill might be a better tool.

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=paint mixer&storeId=10051

 

[andgott]

Re: Going foamless

Sounds like you are mixing your resin a bit too aggressively, I never use anything but a paint stir stick. I think that a blender will probably introduce a lot of air.

As for grinders, I go through them, too. I did buy a hitachi, which is really nice, I don't use it to grind glass. Before you trash your old grinder, give it a good cleaning inside- especially the brushes- the glass dust gets in there and wreaks havoc... Usually when I'm grinding glass I use a harbor freight 4 1/2" grinder- they have coupons for them that make them $10.00 each, and I've found that they do as well and last as long as the name brands when dealing with glass!

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: Going foamless

I use a 3M Scotch Brite Pad rubber banded around the air vent holes for the brushes to help filter the glass dust. Seems to really help in the longevity of the grinder.

 

[jones01m]

Re: Going foamless

Usually when I'm grinding glass I use a harbor freight 4 1/2" grinder- they have coupons for them that make them $10.00 each, and I've found that they do as well and last as long as the name brands when dealing with glass!

At my location they are on sale this weekend for $9.99. I just picked one up at lunch. It is getting difficult to find accessories for my 4".

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Going foamless

Sounds like you are mixing your resin a bit too aggressively, I never use anything but a paint stir stick. I think that a blender will probably introduce a lot of air.

Nothing but a paint stick for poly mixing ..

Forget about the air whippin' .. your introducing Friction .. bad Idea when mixing something that is thermodynamic .. ( unless your in cooler temps.. then yea mix it up a little more when in cold ).

Usually when I'm grinding glass I use a harbor freight 4 1/2" grinder- they have coupons for them that make them $10.00 each, and I've found that they do as well and last as long as the name brands when dealing with glass!

LOL .. um .. no they do not LOL !! What your going to find is your cheap grinder is going to put you in the Suit for 4 times longer then needed. ( and most likely go through 2x the disks ).

There is NOTHING from HF that will compare with quality tools .. PERIOD !! ..

I use a 3M Scotch Brite Pad rubber banded around the air vent holes for the brushes to help filter the glass dust. Seems to really help in the longevity of the grinder.

Again.. bad advice .. the Armature and the brushes are encapsulated within the tool housing. Those Vents are too keep the tool COOL .. Do not even put your hand over the vents as they blow HOT OUT ! .. or you can if you like and Smoke your tool fast.

At my location they are on sale this weekend for $9.99. I just picked one up at lunch. It is getting difficult to find accessories for my 4".

If your going to grind more then a day .... your spending 50+ bucks on a good grinder.

The grinder can be used for other things ..

YD.