How much motor will this boat need?

[no_money]

First post, I've been reading here for a while and have been looking at an old boat which caught my eye on Craigslist.
Its a 1967 MFG Westfield with no motor. The boat is in super shape, its light, and needs nothing but a pair of seats and a motor. I already own a good running mid 90's 40hp Tohatsu that I got on another boat I bought and ended up scrapping due to transom and stringer rot. The motor has been stored for about 2 years now.

Here's the CL ad: 16' MFG Westfield - 1967 all fiberglass hull
The seller wants a bit much for the boat but its in really nice shape, my thought is that I can't buy anything new like it and its light. The fact that MFG didn't use wood stringers or decks in those years is also a big plus.
Besides, I like the style of those old boats.

I figure the boat weighs around 600 to 650lbs, plus my 350lbs, and a buddy that's almost the same, plus figure a cooler, 12 gallons of fuel, and a other fishing tackle. I figure the boat on the water will be around 1,500lbs give or take. The whole deal only works for me if the motor I've got will work. If not, its not in my budget right now. I certainly can't afford a new motor. I did look at several other boats but all needed lots of work or were a lot heavier, either due to being water logged or just overbuilt. If I go smaller, chances are the boat won't handle the weight I need to carry, and if I go bigger, I'll probably need a lot more power.

Anyhow, do you think the 40hp Tohatsu 2 stroke will put this boat on plane?

 

[airshot]

Re: How much motor will this boat need?

Due to the age I would want to look over this boat very carefully. I like the hull style on the MFG's, they seemed to handle waves well in their day. If the estimate on the boats weight is real and it does sound a little low to me, the 40 hp should do the job. You are probably at a minimum recomended hp for this boat but it should be able to plane out with two of you on board. It will not pull up a skier, but should be adequate for a fishing boat, perhaps 22-24 mph. You will probably have to experiment with propellors to get the right pitch to move this boat along. Also your OB will need to be in top running condition to get the best performance out of this boat.

Airshot

 

[roscoe]

Re: How much motor will this boat need?

My guess of hull, gear, cooler, fuel, motor, and 2 large people, is more like 1800#.
That 40 is going to have a heck of a time pushing 1800#.

THe boat AND TRAILER may be worth a grand, but not the boat alone, imo.

Also, just because there is no wood in the hull, if that is true, doesn't mean the hull is sound.
Can you verify the age and construction?

Also, max hp on that hull was 70, i believe, so yes, a 40 is going to struggle.

I would rather sell the 40, go with this:

http://southjersey.craigslist.org/boa/3867264720.html

 

[Fisherball]

Re: How much motor will this boat need?

Post something on in the Manufacturer's forums, MFG section. There are lots of members with mid-60's Westfields. They can tell you what to look for as far as problems & how good of condition your's is in.

 

[crabby captain john]

Re: How much motor will this boat need?

A 40 may work but my guess is it will struggle with any load on that boat. Certainly not knocking the boat as in their day they were great. I think 60 hp was on my uncles and it was no speed demon. Sell your 40 to someone with a small jon boat or that needs a kicker or trolling motor. Save your money and get a boat with the power required.

 

[JB]

Re: How much motor will this boat need?

A rule of thumb: 70% of rated max HP is usually required for satisfactory performance. 70% of 70HP is 49, so you need at least 50HP for dependable performance. The 40HP might plane okay with one adult, but don't expect it to fly with heavy loads or pull toys.

 

[H20Rat]

Re: How much motor will this boat need?

A rule of thumb: 70% of rated max HP is usually required for satisfactory performance. 70% of 70HP is 49, so you need at least 50HP for dependable performance. The 40HP might plane okay with one adult, but don't expect it to fly with heavy loads or pull toys.

So if you take the age into account, he meets the minimum! That boat was rated back when engines were rated at the crank. A 1967 50hp engine was maybe putting out 35-40hp to the water.

But yeah, I agree, a 40hp is going to be the bare minimum for that. If you get enough weight of front, it should plane at least, but it isn't going to break any speed records.

 

[jestor68]

Re: How much motor will this boat need?

Well, the Mercury prop selector says that boat with a 40 hp Mercury(1.83 gear ratio) should do 5250 rpm @ 27 mph with a 12 pitch prop using a total calculated weight of 1642 lbs.

You aren't going to set any speed records, but it appears that it'll definitely plane off.

Since your Tohatsu has a similar gear ratio(1.85), I don't see why it wouldn't perform similarly.

 

[roscoe]

Re: How much motor will this boat need?

Well, the Mercury prop selector says that boat with a 40 hp Mercury(1.83 gear ratio) should do 5250 rpm @ 27 mph with a 12 pitch prop using a total calculated weight of 1642 lbs.

You aren't going to set any speed records, but it appears that it'll definitely plane off

The speed numbers given by Merc prop selector are assuming the hull can get on plane with the given hp motor.

 

[jestor68]

Re: How much motor will this boat need?

The speed numbers given by Merc prop selector are assuming the hull can get on plane with the given hp motor.

It's not an assumption; rather it's a calculation. With one of these on the motor, it'll get on plane. As the photo illustrates, it has very little dead rise at the transom, which made it a very fast planing hull.

 

[jestor68]

Re: How much motor will this boat need?

A rule of thumb: 70% of rated max HP is usually required for satisfactory performance. 70% of 70HP is 49, so you need at least 50HP for dependable performance. The 40HP might plane okay with one adult, but don't expect it to fly with heavy loads or pull toys.

That's 70 crankshaft HP(1967). If we were to rate it by today's standards, it'd be like a 60 HP Max rating. Now the 40 HP prop shaft rating motor he is thinking about putting on it doesn't sound that far fetched.

 

[spoilsofwar]

Re: How much motor will this boat need?

Horsepower debate aside, I think you'd be crazy to pay $1k for that hull with no motor, trailer, or even seats. I do see your logic behind wanting it, though.

 

[no_money]

Re: How much motor will this boat need?

I wasn't thinking about the difference in HP ratings then and now. What I was thinking about is that my 40hp Tohatsu on a rotten, water logged 15' trihull would run circles around my buddies almost new 50hp four stroke Mercury on his J14 skiff with two big guys in his boat. No clue on the actual speed but I could fly by him like he was standing still.

I did see that 18' Sportcraft but its too heavy for my car to tow and the larger motor will burn far more fuel.

I wasn't really looking at older boats but after reading up on the way the older MFG hulls were built, I started to specifically look for one. I've looked at dozens of boats, nearly all needed a transom due to being stored outdoors for so many years. The gel coat is perfect, no cracks, minimal fading, and the transom is rock solid. The floor and lower hull on these were all glass, no wood used at all. This one is perfect. The original seats are gone, probably removed for space reasons. I looked at one with original seats and the rear seats sat pretty far back and faced forward, with a pair of back to back seats or maybe a pair of pedestal seats that swivel around there will be a lot more room for things like tackle boxes and coolers.
I have the Bimini top from the boat I junked, the motor, and a trailer, and a pair of Wise back to back seats. After looking at the MFG and really crawling all over it, I can't find anything wrong with it.

The guy who's selling the boat said he'd swap me the 1970 60hp that he took off the boat for my 40hp Tohatsu. With the difference in HP ratings, they may be almost equal? Let alone the 60hp is electric shift, and from what I read, that's not a good set up? The 60hp is a three cylinder, my 40hp is a twin cylinder motor.

I think the seller may come down a bit, but even if he won't, its a decent looking boat. I've looked at so many boats, even a few boats only a few years old that were trashed, either by weather or just abuse. Between patches, cracks, soft floors, soft transoms, and other issues, this MFG is like a new boat. The way I'm thinking right now is that I can't buy anything new, even as a bare hull for anything close to what he's asking, I can't even buy a bare 16' open aluminum hull for that price. Let alone a hull that looks like it'll be super dry and will make use of the parts I saved from my old boat.

Another thought on the 40hp, vs hunting down a 70hp that I could afford, the 40hp is in itself lighter, and lighter in the stern where it counts. That alone may be an advantage over the 70hp three cylinder. The 40hp has to be close to 100lbs lighter than a 70hp with power tilt. With the 40hp I'd also think about putting the fuel tank up front to even out the weight a bit. I would still stay with portable tanks.

I attached a pic I snapped of the boat where it sits now, its in a dark building and all I had was my cell phone but it does show how clean things like the windshield frame and deck are.
Any clue as to what would have gone where I put the yellow circle in the pic? Someone removed something with four bolts and a fifth hole. The deck has a smooth raised area there on both sides. The holes line up with one of those PVC drop down antenna mounts but I wouldn't have figured they had anything like that back then? Maybe a metal one but even so those spots must have been for something else? Horn? spotlight maybe? The underside is heavily reinforced from the factory in those spots.
If someone had antennas there, why one on both sides? Also, considering where they are, and the angle they're on, they wouldn't fold down very well unless they were short metal whips or they had fixed mounts of some type?

 

[no_money]

Re: How much motor will this boat need?

It's not an assumption; rather it's a calculation. With one of these on the motor, it'll get on plane. View attachment 198863 As the photo illustrates, it has very little dead rise at the transom, which made it a very fast planing hull. View attachment 198866

I looked into the idea of adding one of those whale tails to the motor but was pretty much told that it could really slow the boat down as well as put undo strain on the transom?

If the 40hp won't do it on its own, I'd have to figure its not enough motor?

 

[smokeonthewater]

Re: How much motor will this boat need?

the 40 would PROBABLY do ok on the hull if the two guys and gear totaled 500 lbs but as describes above the boat would be carrying closer to 1000 lbs and it would be questionable... IMHO the seller put one too many zero's in his price too.

 

[jestor68]

Re: How much motor will this boat need?

I looked into the idea of adding one of those whale tails to the motor but was pretty much told that it could really slow the boat down as well as put undo strain on the transom?

If the 40hp won't do it on its own, I'd have to figure its not enough motor?

Actually, I feel the boat(given the modest dead rise at the stern) will not have trouble getting on plane.

The Doel Fin was presented just in case. I have used the product on every boat since 1986(4 different ones) and found it to work wonders, with no lose of top speed, or any of the querks that the nay sayers talk about. If you google "Doel Fin" and visit the sites that sell it(Bass Pro Shops has lots of testimonials) and read the comments of folks who actually use the product; you'll hear different stories.

 

[no_money]

Re: How much motor will this boat need?

I've pretty much convinced my self to go buy the MFG, I plan to go back and try and make a deal this Friday.

Just for kicks I went and figured the HP for the MFG by CG standards as listed for new boats, I still get 70hp going by its size and hull style. The boat is 15' 8" long with a 61" transom width. I get 70hp when using the CG formula, same now as then. Now of course I'd assume there's a weight issue at hand, but what did a 70hp weigh in 1967 vs. a modern or semi modern (80's or 90's) outboard?
I wouldn't want to hunt down a 70hp that weighs any more than what one did back then. If I'm not mistaken, OMC motors were V4s that year? What would I be looking at as a maximum weight for the motor to stay within the rating for the hull. Would hanging say a late 80's 70hp with power tilt/trim be a problem weight wise? I'd figure one of those to be close to 250lbs or so.
With that weight in mind, the Tohatsu M40 I have is no more than maybe 130lbs. The Tohatsu is far lighter than an Evinrude/Johnson or Mercury motor of the same HP by a lot.

I did some searching and came up with a few other motor options, I looked at a 1990 Mercury 3 cylinder 50hp no power tilt/trim for $350 in running shape, a 1980 55hp Johnson no t/t, for $1000, and a 1985 70hp Johnson w/power tilt/trim, for $1500. I really didn't want to put money out for a bigger motor but the fact that the transom is drilled and set up now for an OMC motor, using the Tohatsu will mean two things, one I'll have to fill the holes in the transom, second, How do I get the motor plate to stay in place with a clamp on style motor like the Tohatsu? (The MFG has a curved transom, the hull uses an aluminum plate which is contoured on one side to flatten the transom where the motor sits, this plate is mounted under the motor on the same bolts).

The Mercury 50hp mounts with clamp screws like my Tohatsu, and I figure that its added weight over that of the Tohatsu will no doubt offset any HP gain. The same for the 55hp Johnson, its even heavier and being older, it probably puts out something close to 50hp at the prop or less anyhow. The 70hp, is a prop rated motor, its got a new power head, fresh lower unit, two rebuilt carbs and all new electronics. The guy had it gone over by a local dealer for a project boat he gave up on. I looked at other 70hp motors but all were far more money and in unknown condition.
The guy with the 55hp is willing to take my Tohatsu in partial trade, he has a boat that's rated at only 40hp and since its got a tiller on it too, its perfect for his boat. The 55hp Johnson is remote only. Its super clean, it almost looks new. He ran it in a barrel for about 20 minutes while I was there, it was cold to the touch when I got there and it fired right up. It pumped water, sounded fine and idled good. He's also got a hand full of various pitch props that go with it. It has a stainless prop on it now and came off a 17' Aluminum bass boat. All are premix motors. The 55 and 70hp will both bolt right on the MFG. The 55hp is a freshwater run motor, the others have seen saltwater.

The big plus I see to my Tohatsu is that I know that motor and know its reliable. I've owned it for years. Any other motor would be a bit of a gamble. I suppose I could drill and secure the motor plate with countersunk screws and clamp on my 40hp with no problems. Then drill two lower mounting bolts to secure the motor if needed. It never was bolted at the bottom to my old boat and it never moved on the transom but that transom was soft, the screws were buried into the wood inside.
The MFG has bare fiberglass on the inside of the transom where the motor screws will make contact, do I need to put something there to protect the transom inside?

 

[jcfitzgerald]

Re: How much motor will this boat need?

BIA capacity plates use 150 pounds per person. Figuring the weights stated, it will be nearly 5 persons equivalent, plus gear. I think it might be exceeding the capacity plate, or very close. A 40 may not plane at all with that load. A FG boat that old with no trailer? $150.00. Aluminum transom protector plates are available. The 70 hp or even the 55 will be much better than the 40. Fuel consumption will be disappointing compared to the 40.

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: How much motor will this boat need?

that's not a $1000 hull. Maybe $400-600 in collector's condition.

Of the motors you mention the mid-80's Johnson 70 is a classic good motor, but the 55 was a good one, too. Don't forget to price your contols BEFORE you buy if they don't come with the motor. or can you get the controls now on the boat?

You can't compare your possible rigs to your friend's J14 with a 50--that boat is seriously over powered and will run like a scalded dog. And it will have a dangerous slide so don't be near him or in it when he turns!

Consider getting 2 six-gallon tanks. One may be enough and you can take 2 for long trips, also easier to stow and you can move them apart. We used to run a 16' starcraft with 2 sixes in the stern under the splash well.

I see that the numbers are missing from the hull,. Be sure you a have a good title. No title, no deal--it won't be worth it.

 

[no_money]

Re: How much motor will this boat need?

The numbers are on the hull, the guy scrubbed them from the pic in the ad.

So far this is by far the best hull I've seen to suit my needs, every other boat I've looked at has either needed floors, transom, and who knows what else below the deck. At least with an MFG from this era there's no wood in the floors or lower hull, only the transom is wood cored and this one is rock solid. I can bounce my 300lbs on the lower unit of the 60hp on it now and the transom don't move at all. Like I told my buddy, if you know where there's one in better shape for less within a reasonable distance, show me, I'll go look at it, but so far this is the first boat I've seen that I can hang a motor on and be on the water tomorrow with.

I did look at another boat that's not far away but it needs new floors and a transom panel installed, it too has no seats, no motor, and no trailer, but this one is aluminum and the guy won't budge on price: http://southjersey.craigslist.org/boa/3847873548.html
I went and looked at it either way but felt its way too heavy. Its made of heavy gauge aluminum and weighs nearly a 1000lbs empty. Its a great boat but far heavier than the MFG. Everything else has been either way bigger or smaller, or I/O powered. The guy next door to where the MFG is has an old 15' boat for $100, it needs a transom and floor job. It also has no motor, trailer, or seats. It is a deeper hull though. None of the boats I've seen have a motor or seats, and those that had trailers were junk boats on trailers.

There's no capacity plate on the MFG, its probably too old, and you can't buy a canoe here for $150, let alone a good solid 16' hull.

I plan to head there on Friday after I cash my paycheck this week.