Hydrofoil

[southkogs]

Re: Hydrofoil

Now that right there might get me to change my opinion on foils. My wife costs me $60 just waking up in the morning. Less proposing could be a huge savings . . .

I've come back to this thread twice just for this post. It's still crackin' me up. Might have to frame it and put it up somewhere in the garage.

 

[gregk9]

Re: Hydrofoil

The best part about the internet is:
If you ask enough people for their opinion you are going to find someone to tell you to do exactly what you wanted to do in the first place.

The best part about the internet is:
If you ask enough people for their opinion you are going to find someone to tell you to do exactly what you wanted to do in the first place.

Sometime there just isn't one correct answer.

Like the winterizing dilemma for instance:

Some people top off their fuel tanks, use no fuel stabilizer and never had any problems the next season.

Some people top off their fuel tanks but swear you need a certain kind of stabilizer and they never had any problems the next season.

Some people keep their tanks half full with stabilizer so they can put a half tank of fresh in the spring and they never had any problems the next season.

Some people drain their tanks completely and they never had any problems the next season.

And then list goes on and on?.and then there?s the argument on which fuel stabilizer to use. It?s enough to make your head explode!!


In my case there's no room for smart tabs on my transom unless I omit the kicker which I'm not going to do. So the hydrofoil was the answer.

I'm sure it also depends on which hydrofoil you choose. Some of them are monstrous and I could see how they might put too mush stress on the cavitations plate.

 

[chriscraft254]

Re: Hydrofoil

When I got my rig..used, it had one of those on it.......
I read all the threads on the new smart tabs at the time (about 3 years ago).
Like the stress it puts on the outdrive and transom to lift the arse of the boat up....
Decided to try the smart tabs.......WILL NEVER LOOK BACK!
They do the same thing only better. and they don't stress the outdrive or transom plus.....
They inproved top end by 3 mph. Little to no drag!

Just one more person that has the Nauticuas tabs tuned in right! Surprised you haven't been lashed for saying they improved your speed yet!

These work, anyone who doesn't spend the extra what, 100$ over the foils is making a mistake. IMHO

 

[chriscraft254]

Re: Hydrofoil

[I had a discussion with John from Nauticus about foils and tabs and it's documented in one of the thousands of other threads on this subject. And even he admitted that tabs and foils aren't designed to do the same thing, but that foils are frequently misused and it's why so many people "think" they are of no value. He said yes, a properly set up foil can improve performance. He uses all of the incorrect and misuse experiences to advertise with though.]


You just contradicted your own self. You said that John from Nauticus uses only the incorrect and misuse experiences to advertise with, though you said he said, a properly set-up foil will improve performance.

There site, actually shows what the foils do when properly set-up, not improperly set -up. They really make no claim against them or even other tabs that are also there competetors. They simply "imo" show the differences and where the foil can cause issues in handling compared to there product.

Just like the other tab companies, I'm sure would be willing to point out the differences about their product capabilities compared to Nauticus. Like being able to adjust for a load difference side to siide. I for one, see nothing wrong with that because it simply gives the public knowledge, that they might not have already had to make an informed decision.

True that foils can improve performance when properly set-up, not true that they will perform as well as Nauticus tabs or helm controlled tabs.

Foils can cause very bad handling even when properly set-up, mostly in turning. Like many others here, I have experienced that first hand. I see no reason for someone to sacrifice handling for the sake of saving a few bucks. Instead of improving just some performance, why not get alot of performance increase.

The biggest difference in the foil and any tabs is you can not expect to get the same stability from a foil that is lifting a boat from the center/outdrive. The tabs give you a wider platform as to lift from,unlike the lift from the foil is all from the center of a boat stern, making the teater todder effect even worse than it was without tabs. .02

 

[dave11]

Re: Hydrofoil

I have a 16ft Alumaweld with a 60 on it, which is max power for this boat. I am going to try a Permatrim foil on it. I put a SE Sport 300 on my other boat, 23ft, and really the only difference I noticed was a little better handling around the dock.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Hydrofoil

[I had a discussion with John from Nauticus about foils and tabs and it's documented in one of the thousands of other threads on this subject. And even he admitted that tabs and foils aren't designed to do the same thing, but that foils are frequently misused and it's why so many people "think" they are of no value. He said yes, a properly set up foil can improve performance. He uses all of the incorrect and misuse experiences to advertise with though.]


You just contradicted your own self. You said that John from Nauticus uses only the incorrect and misuse experiences to advertise with, though you said he said, a properly set-up foil will improve performance.

There site, actually shows what the foils do when properly set-up, not improperly set -up. They really make no claim against them or even other tabs that are also there competetors. They simply "imo" show the differences and where the foil can cause issues in handling compared to there product.

Just like the other tab companies, I'm sure would be willing to point out the differences about their product capabilities compared to Nauticus. Like being able to adjust for a load difference side to siide. I for one, see nothing wrong with that because it simply gives the public knowledge, that they might not have already had to make an informed decision.

True that foils can improve performance when properly set-up, not true that they will perform as well as Nauticus tabs or helm controlled tabs.

Foils can cause very bad handling even when properly set-up, mostly in turning. Like many others here, I have experienced that first hand. I see no reason for someone to sacrifice handling for the sake of saving a few bucks. Instead of improving just some performance, why not get alot of performance increase.

The biggest difference in the foil and any tabs is you can not expect to get the same stability from a foil that is lifting a boat from the center/outdrive. The tabs give you a wider platform as to lift from,unlike the lift from the foil is all from the center of a boat stern, making the teater todder effect even worse than it was without tabs. .02

WOW..this is getting ridicules, people keep thinking the two product do the same thing...THEY DON'T...so when someone talks about a foil not being adjustable where tabs are, it means they don't know how foils are supposed to be used.

If a foil can even be of any benefit on a particular boat, and is set up CORRETLY, it will not cause handling issues.

The link posted from the Nauticus site shows an I/O, this is the least likely setup for a foil to work well on, so it's no surprise the results aren't all that good. Then all they do is list the negative effects and make no mention of how one should be set up. They also compare the two in a way that sounds like they do them exact same thing?and again THEY DON?T.

I checked the link to the Nauticus site and didn't see anything about how to CORRECTLY set up a foil, if it's there I didn't see it. I tried to copy and paste the page here but it wouldn't show up in the post.

 

[oops!]

Re: Hydrofoil

Now that right there might get me to change my opinion on foils. My wife costs me $60 just waking up in the morning. Less proposing could be a huge savings . . .

too late to change Kev......keep payin the 60 bux.......alimony is a lot more expensive.....

but if you do go the alimony route.........run out and buy a whole box of foils.......no more proposing !

 

[joewithaboat]

Re: Hydrofoil

WOW..this is getting ridicules, people keep thinking the two product do the same thing...THEY DON'T...so when someone talks about a foil not being adjustable where tabs are, it means they don't know how foils are supposed to be used.

If a foil can even be of any benefit on a particular boat, and is set up CORRETLY, it will not cause handling issues.

The link posted from the Nauticus site shows an I/O, this is the least likely setup for a foil to work well on, so it's no surprise the results aren't all that good. Then all they do is list the negative effects and make no mention of how one should be set up. They also compare the two in a way that sounds like they do the same exact same thing?and again THEY DON?T.

I checked the link to the Nauticus site and didn't see anything about how to CORRECTLY set up a foil, if it's there I didn't see it. I tried to copy and past the page here but it wouldn't show up in the post.

I have used 4 differnt foils on 3 boats, multiple on some of the boats.
Its seems that most people are using either tabs or foils for the same thing... to get out of the hole and up on plane a little sooner, stay on plane at much lower speed. I have tried both for this reason. Both make skiing and tubing much more enjoyable without switching props back and forth.
For an i/o im not sure you can do much to adjust a foil other than trim... so it either works well or it doesnt. This is why i tried different models. All of mine kept the bow down, got on plane quicker... but made the boats darty at speed and would blow out in a hard turn. Smart tabs do all of the same positive things and more while having NONE of these negative traits.

What kills me is that when someone like me gives an opinion that has used BOTH, people who have NOT keep bad mouthing smart tabs refusing to believe how well they work. It is not even Close, smart tabs work much better for my 19 foot i/o.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Hydrofoil

I have used 4 differnt foils on 3 boats, multiple on some of the boats.
Its seems that most people are using either tabs or foils for the same thing... to get out of the hole and up on plane a little sooner, stay on plane at much lower speed. I have tried both for this reason.

You are correct, people do try to use them for the same thing, and while there is a side effect of a correctly used foil that "may" help when used for this purpose, it's not what they're designed to do. Tabs are the correct product for helping do what you wanted, not a foil, and there's no surprise in that.

 

[joewithaboat]

Re: Hydrofoil

You are correct, people do try to use them for the same thing, and while there is a side effect of a correctly used foil that "may" help when used for this purpose, it's not what they're designed to do. Tabs are the correct product for helping do what you wanted, not a foil, and there's no surprise in that.

You are not going to try and tell me that their purpose on an I/O is to provide more top end are you, because all 4 that i tried did the opposite.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Hydrofoil

You are not going to try and tell me that their purpose on an I/O is to provide more top end are you, because all 4 that i tried did the opposite.

I'm sort of lost on that question, if you have read anything I have posted on the subject you'd know what I'm talking about.

 

[chriscraft254]

Re: Hydrofoil

WOW..this is getting ridicules, people keep thinking the two product do the same thing...THEY DON'T...so when someone talks about a foil not being adjustable where tabs are, it means they don't know how foils are supposed to be used.

If a foil can even be of any benefit on a particular boat, and is set up CORRETLY, it will not cause handling issues.

The link posted from the Nauticus site shows an I/O, this is the least likely setup for a foil to work well on, so it's no surprise the results aren't all that good. Then all they do is list the negative effects and make no mention of how one should be set up. They also compare the two in a way that sounds like they do the same exact same thing?and again THEY DON?T.

I checked the link to the Nauticus site and didn't see anything about how to CORRECTLY set up a foil, if it's there I didn't see it. I tried to copy and paste the page here but it wouldn't show up in the post.

With a hydrofoil, the handling issues start the minute you throttle up. The fact that it is adding more torque stress should be enough for you to see that.

Take a boat without anything to assist lift. What happens naturally as the boat is throttled up? The prop torque causes the boat to torque in the direction of the spin on the prop. When you add a wing to the anti-ventilation plate, you are causing even more torque.

Even if the foil is properly set-up, it has no way of adjusting the amount of lift it gives the stern of the boat. The lift is in direct relation to speed.. The more speed/pressure on the foil plate, the more the boat is lifted in the stern and the bow is pushed down.

Your anti-ventilation plate is suppose to be about 1 inch on average above the keel of the boat. In order to mount the foil so it was completely out of the water to not cause issues while on a plane, the motor would actually have to be raised to accomidate for the larger size/thickness of the foil.

The foil then could still cause issues while turning hard, because the wide edges of the foil catch the up pressure of the water while turning, pushing the bow down more into a turn on the low side. This is not what you want in a turn, you want the boat as level as possible and stable.

What the nauticus site shows is comparisons, I doubt that any foil or other tab company shows how to set other peoples products up properly. Why would they?

I think we all know already that foils do not do the same things as tabs, they only do some of the things tabs do and in comparison,don't do it very well..

 

[joewithaboat]

Re: Hydrofoil

I'm sort of lost on that question, if you have read anything I have posted on the subject you'd know what I'm talking about.

Sorry i read all of your posts here and looked at your first 2 pages under your name and didnt see what you are refering to as the main purpose of a foil. I did look at the web page for Stingray which seems to be the hot one currently. They make a big deal about how well it comes out of the hole and up on plane, no chine walk, porposing etc. Am i missing something?

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Hydrofoil

This is my post from last week's discussion of tabs Versus foils, I just copied and pasted it here.


Your SE 3000 probably isn't the best option (tool), but it may help.

The problem with most foil installs is that people think it's a bolt on and head to the water product...and it's NOT. This is where 90% of the complaints come from, they bolt it on, head to the water, and then it handles funny or they lose top speed. Well of course it will, you just bolted a large devise on your motor that when used incorrectly, or if not needed, will do just that.

A foil should not be dragging in the water at speed when set up correctly, on an outboard you can easily raise it up, on an I/O you just need to live with the possible negative side effects if you like the other things it may do.

A foil is not designed to do what trim tabs do, at least not in the same way. What a foil does is allow you to raise the motor higher and not let it ventilate, that's it, it is not supposed to drag in the water and force the bow down, although they do get used in this way.

What it can do, that is if your boat, motor, prop and type of use can even benefit from one is.

1 Allow you to raise the motor higher and not have the prop ventilate.

2 Less bow rise due the motor being higher up and having less leverage on the boat.

3 higher top speed due to the motor being higher with less gear case in the water.

4 better MPG from less gear case drag from the motor being higher.

5 possible prop change for even better performance.

6 Possibly better handling.

7 possibly faster planing because even with the motor raised up higher, the foil doesn't allow air to reach the prop, so it doesn't ventilate.

There is also the possibility that there will be no benefit because your combination can?t be helped by a foil.


Possible negatives if you don't do the set up work.

1 Loss of top speed due to the drag of the foil.

2 Odd handling, sometimes even scary due to the foil dragging in the water at speed.

3 Fewer MPG due to the drag of the foil.

 

[chriscraft254]

Re: Hydrofoil

This is my post from last week's discussion of tabs Versus foils, I just copied and pasted it here.


Your SE 3000 probably isn't the best option (tool), but it may help.

The problem with most foil installs is that people think it's a bolt on and head to the water product...and it's NOT. This is where 90% of the complaints come from, they bolt it on, head to the water, and then it handles funny or they lose top speed. Well of course it will, you just bolted a large devise on your motor that when used incorrectly, or if not needed, will do just that.

A foil should not be dragging in the water at speed when set up correctly, on an outboard you can easily raise it up, on an I/O you just need to live with the possible negative side effects if you like the other things it may do.

A foil is not designed to do what trim tabs do, at least not in the same way. What a foil does is allow you to raise the motor higher and not let it ventilate, that's it, it is not supposed to drag in the water and force the bow down, although they do get used in this way.

What it can do, that is if your boat, motor, prop and type of use can even benefit from one is.

1 Allow you to raise the motor higher and not have the prop ventilate.

2 Less bow rise due the motor being higher up and having less leverage on the boat.

3 higher top speed due to the motor being higher with less gear case in the water.

4 better MPG from less gear case drag from the motor being higher.

5 possible prop change for even better performance.

6 Possibly better handling.

7 possibly faster planing because even with the motor raised up higher, the foil doesn't allow air to reach the prop, so it doesn't ventilate.

There is also the possibility that there will be no benefit because your combination can?t be helped by a foil.


Possible negatives if you don't do the set up work.

1 Loss of top speed due to the drag of the foil.

2 Odd handling, sometimes even scary due to the foil dragging in the water at speed.

3 Fewer MPG due to the drag of the foil.

I didn't agree with everything you posted then, and can't now either, but I won't go into all of them.

I have to add to your negatives though. It is a simple fact that the hydrofoil even when positioned to run out of water can get torqued by waves you are going over. The depth of your stern drive is not a constant unless it is like glass out where you are running.

The other thing is because the foils lift from the center/middle of the boats stern, there is no side to side stability provided. This is where it gets really kinda freaky at high speeds, because if you go to turn, the foil can and will cause some serious pulling in ways you don't want.

I again, just can't see ever sacrificing that performance when there are much better options out there for not much more money. The extra money you spend on tabs will be made up in fuel effiecientcy in very short order.

Also, with tabs, you don't have to change your whole motor set-up to install them.

Last but not least, if you raise your motor so high as to increase rpms, you may be out of the recommended rpm range for your motor.

 

[joewithaboat]

Re: Hydrofoil

This is my post from last week's discussion of tabs Versus foils, I just copied and pasted it here.


Your SE 3000 probably isn't the best option (tool), but it may help.

The problem with most foil installs is that people think it's a bolt on and head to the water product...and it's NOT. This is where 90% of the complaints come from, they bolt it on, head to the water, and then it handles funny or they lose top speed. Well of course it will, you just bolted a large devise on your motor that when used incorrectly, or if not needed, will do just that.

A foil should not be dragging in the water at speed when set up correctly, on an outboard you can easily raise it up, on an I/O you just need to live with the possible negative side effects if you like the other things it may do.

A foil is not designed to do what trim tabs do, at least not in the same way. What a foil does is allow you to raise the motor higher and not let it ventilate, that's it, it is not supposed to drag in the water and force the bow down, although they do get used in this way.

What it can do, that is if your boat, motor, prop and type of use can even benefit from one is.

1 Allow you to raise the motor higher and not have the prop ventilate.

2 Less bow rise due the motor being higher up and having less leverage on the boat.

3 higher top speed due to the motor being higher with less gear case in the water.

4 better MPG from less gear case drag from the motor being higher.

5 possible prop change for even better performance.

6 Possibly better handling.

7 possibly faster planing because even with the motor raised up higher, the foil doesn't allow air to reach the prop, so it doesn't ventilate.

There is also the possibility that there will be no benefit because your combination can?t be helped by a foil.


Possible negatives if you don't do the set up work.

1 Loss of top speed due to the drag of the foil.

2 Odd handling, sometimes even scary due to the foil dragging in the water at speed.

3 Fewer MPG due to the drag of the foil.

well.... i dont have an out board and havent had in ages. For an i/o stingrays website makes no mention of the things you talk about. Maybe for outboard i guess. Most foils i see are on i/o,
just my observations though.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Hydrofoil

I in no way defend how they are marketed or advertised, and for the most part they don't work correctly on an I/O. What's strange they rarely ever say how to set one up correctly.

 

[joewithaboat]

Re: Hydrofoil

I in no way defend how they are marketed or advertised, and for the most part they don't work correctly on an I/O. What's strange they rarely ever say how to set one up correctly.

So... have you used Smart tabs?

 

[chriscraft254]

Re: Hydrofoil

I in no way defend how they are marketed or advertised, and for the most part they don't work correctly on an I/O. What's strange they rarely ever say how to set one up correctly.

Thats because they can't be set up correctly to improve performance. haha All in good fun man. Were all up way to late I think!

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Hydrofoil

I didn't agree with everything you posted then, and can't now either, but I won't go into all of them.

I have to add to your negatives though. It is a simple fact that the hydrofoil even when positioned to run out of water can get torqued by waves you are going over. The depth of your stern drive is not a constant unless it is like glass out where you are running.

The other thing is because the foils lift from the center/middle of the boats stern, there is no side to side stability provided. This is where it gets really kinda freaky at high speeds, because if you go to turn, the foil can and will cause some serious pulling in ways you don't want.

I again, just can't see ever sacrificing that performance when there are much better options out there for not much more money. The extra money you spend on tabs will be made up in fuel effiecientcy in very short order.

Also, with tabs, you don't have to change your whole motor set-up to install them.

Last but not least, if you raise your motor so high as to increase rpms, you may be out of the recommended rpm range for your motor.

Please go into it, in detail if possible.

You still don't seem to get it, there is no lift from the foil when used correctly, there is no lift from the center/middle. If you have an I/O forget it, it will most likely be a waste of money.