I would like to introduce myself, and talk about my rebuild.

[redfury]

Re: I would like to introduce myself, and talk about my rebuild.

I always tell my customers that aren't happy with my work that "it's good enough for gov't work!"


Well, actually, I'd never say that to a customer, but after a few military years working with substandard tools.....

If you haven't yet, check out the 1708 Biax tape on US composites. I'd run a layer of that inside and outside of the keel to beef that up and then finish it off with the CSM and woven glass.

 

[jcsftwre]

Dec-10th-2008 6:24 pm

Dec-10th-2008 6:24 pm

I finally was able to do my very first fiberglass work today. I had started with the patch work I needed to do from the inside of the boat. Later I?ll cover the whole bottom with FG but for now I needed to practice on something smaller. Here are before and after shots of the first patches.

All of the above is the same hole.

Next patch I don't have a before but it was when my grinder went tru the hull

not as good of a job.

 

[jcsftwre]

Next patch

Next patch

In the next photo you can still see some tape on the patch that I missed taking off.

The next photo show that this boat HAS been re done once before. Note the differnt color on the keel. I think that is why the hull is so thin. But that will be taken care of in a few days to a few weeks.

I had put on four layers of glass cloth. 1st was CSM 2nd woven 3rd CSM 4th woven. Don't know if this is the right way to do it but........

 

[jcsftwre]

End of day.

End of day.

As you can see I?m not that good yet with FG but I think in a little time I may be a little better. I ordered some more materials from US Composites and they should be here in a little over a week.

While I wait I may be able to start cutting my stringers and transom and get them fitted to be glassed in when the rest of the FG shows up.

Looking at the inside and outside of the boat now that it is clean I can see about three different colors of resin that had been used over the years rebuilding the boat.

I can see extensive keel work that was done. I also noticed that the places that the old stringer s use to be, have spider and stress cracks in the glass. I think that is because when it was re done the last time they sanded but did not rebuild up the thickness of the fiberglass before they laid the stringers.

The cracks are real noticeable where the stringers ended toward the middle of the boat. The end of the wood passed the force thru the boat bottom making hair line cracks.

 

[jcsercsa]

Re: I would like to introduce myself, and talk about my rebuild.

Well there rick when you bed the stringers , after you add some glass to the hull , you need to bed the stringers . what i mean by that in if the wood meets the hull it can and will cause stress cracks , to prevent this get some PL 5200 they have it just about everywhere, and put a good bead of it under the stringers so they dont touch the hull !!or you could use peanut butter, which ever you like , also you need to do that under the transom also !! John

 

[jcsftwre]

Re: I would like to introduce myself, and talk about my rebuild.

Well there rick when you bed the stringers , after you add some glass to the hull , you need to bed the stringers . what i mean by that in if the wood meets the hull it can and will cause stress cracks , to prevent this get some PL 5200 they have it just about everywhere, and put a good bead of it under the stringers so they dont touch the hull !!or you could use peanut butter, which ever you like , also you need to do that under the transom also !! John

I think I'm going to use good o'l Peanut Buttler that was some of the materials that I orderd. When I made the order I bought a lot extra of the things to make it up.

I agree with you about adding the bedding first. I'm going to do a few good layers like I talked about it a few posts before this one. Then I'll lay the stringers in PB and glass them in and over along with the Transum.

I think the hull needs to be beefed up some, it is almost 30 years old now. Like Oops said I'll have to keep in mind the weight when I do it.

 

[jcsftwre]

Stress cracks

Stress cracks

Here you can see the cracks, this is from the bottom of the boat. You can see the place the old stringer ended. Notice the spinder cracks at the corner.

The dark lines are where the edge of the old stringers where.

 

[MERIT6419]

Re: I would like to introduce myself, and talk about my rebuild.

Rick,
Let me first and formost let me say Thank you for your service to this great country. I dont think people Thank Vets enough. I am sorry to here you were injured during service and now are disabled. I have been reading your thread here for a few days I am a slow reader but I the way you carry yourself and the little snipits here and there you know like do the job to the best of you can ie if you give your all who can ask more from you. You sound like a honorable person. There just are not enough honorable people out there anymore. My Father was a veteran of the vietnam war and was envolved with agent orange our family suffered for it Dad died of cancer now my family had 5 kids me and my brother were born after his envolvement with agent orange both of us have epilepsy. But my father did enstill in us before he died a great respect for the military. Sorry to go on to long but like I said I dont think we thank our military servicemen and women enough. Its funny you never see a politican liveing on the poor side of town but those that lay down there lives for us and our freedom well just volunteer at a VA hospital. Anyway man you are doing great and going strong on that boat and doing the right thing by getting advice here the guys are great and oops man great guy and you could not ask for someone more knowledgeable. the idea of bedding the stringers in peanut butter I dont know if that would be a good idea once that stuff sets up it has zero give the idea of the pl is it has give and so acts as an isolator same goes for when you set the floor bed in PL and then fiberglass it in. I by no means am a expert but I read alot and that is what I have read time and again. You are doing a great job keep it up I enjoy reading about your Iboat.

 

[jcsftwre]

Re: I would like to introduce myself, and talk about my rebuild.

Here's a good write up and more info on epoxy resins and such.
I bought my stuff from John Greer in San Diego. Good price and great products and on eBay also.

Nova, Sorry I missed this post a few days ago I have been more off than on as far as working on my boat. I have not been feeling that well the last week or two, I have to go to the doctors two times a week now and that takes 6 to 8 hours out of the day each time I go.

I have ordered my fiberglass tape for the keel some 1708 for the floor, surfacing vial, Aerosil-Cabosil, fairing compound, glass bubbles, milled fiber. Not a lot of each but enough to get the boat done. I think with all of this and the 1 oz CSM I will be set for glassing material.

I did not order resin because I have bought a little bit locally until I understand how much I?ll need for the boat. I just can?t see it yet even with the formulas for so many ounces to mat. That is why I started with small patch work, I'll be able to get the feel for the amount by doing that.

I looked at the link you posted Nova and that is a good deal for the amount of resin and the grade of it. I have the link saved for when I need to order more resin.

 

[jcsftwre]

Re: I would like to introduce myself, and talk about my rebuild.

Rick,
My Father was a veteran of the vietnam war and was envolved with agent orange our family suffered for it Dad died of cancer now my family had 5 kids me and my brother were born after his envolvement with agent orange both of us have epilepsy.

Merit6419,
Thank you for the kind words! I was at the post office yesterday and seen a young woman with two children, one of them just brand new in a carrier. The girl was sending packages overseas and as I guessed (to myself) she was sending them to her husband in Iraq.

It breaks my heart to see that, the little one has not seen his dad and dad has not seen his child yet. They never met yet! I was standing in line thinking about that to myself when my train of thought was brought to the attention of the counter. I guess the lady at the counter was trying to get my attention to move up, I was next. Everyone was looking at me, I guess she had been trying to get my attention for a moment or two. I have to tell you I was praying for her husband in Iraq.

I am sorry about you losing your father, for some reason I get the feeling that you were sort of on the young side when it happened. I am not commenting here on any certain conflict in particular but, sometimes war is a necessary evil that needs to be. Some men die in the battlefield. and like our fathers some die from the war years later. Either way it still sucks!


I lost my step father ?Pops? to agent orange about 12 years ago. He really died back in the 70?s (mentally) but his body took more years to catch up to the truth. I come from a line of military men and women in my family, pretty much from all sides both blood family and step family. Even though I have been out of the Army for 24 years or so it seems to me that I still fit in better with military than with civilian people. I don?t know why. I guess once it gets into your blood it never leaves, there are a few more if not many more military or ex military people on this board. Some like me just can?t help to still speak of it and some, perhaps, would rather do their best to forget it. I have respect for both, although I don?t know the reason why for either the individual person knows their own reason why. That?s good enough for me.

I had a good friend years ago that had epilepsy what I remember that is not an easy road to walk down either. There are some restrictions and limitation that people with this illness have to adjust their life to. I hope that your able to keep yours under control with medications. Life is hard enough even for an able body person, there are bills to pay work to go loved ones lost and all of the hardships to go with just living life. Then to have a illness or a disability added on to that can make life very tuff for some.

Merit6419, as you said this board has a LOT of great people on it! They are real eager to help and give advice on how to proceed with your work. I like that, I have been on a few boards in my life and what makes this one stand out is the fact that people seem to keep their ego in check at the dock before they venture out to help. I have not seen any arguments of ?you should do it this way or that way and I don?t care what you say!? that just does not seem to happen.

It really floors me how some of these men can spend so much time working on their boats AND spend so much time on this board helping others on their projects. I think that speaks volumes to the type of the people on this board.
Rick

 

[jcsftwre]

Dec-13th-2008

Dec-13th-2008

I was able to work for a little while today, I cut out some CSM for the first layer that will be used to reinforce the hull bottom.

I have to wait for the rest of my materials to show up, they were shipped out two days ago. From US Comp??

Someone please correct me if I am wrong on this.

As I been reading about doing fiberglass it seems one of the worse things to do it to use to much resin. I understand that makes for a weaker bond and it is really the glass mat that gives strength.

So with that in mind when I layed my four small patches I done all of them (all 4 layers) at the same time. I put down resin then CSM then pushed the resin thru with my brush then another layer of resin (very little) pushed thru the resin and so on.

Is this a better way to do it than putting down one layer waiting for it to dry sanding then another layer waiting for it to dry sand and so on?

It seems I would get a better bond doing all the layers at once (not all down at once and pour on resin) No, but resin, csm, resin, csm, Woven so on. It seems this way you could better regulate the amount of resin used and not over saturate the cloth but still making sure it is wet sufficiently and all of the way thru.

What do you think???

 

[jcsercsa]

Re: I would like to introduce myself, and talk about my rebuild.

Sounds good rick , looks petty good also !! John

 

[redfury]

Re: I would like to introduce myself, and talk about my rebuild.

Just curious as to how much of that "santa roll" is left after cutting out the material you are using for the bottom of the boat.

I'm jealous that you can work on your boat. I mean, you are dealing with your physical ailments, yet you get so much done. Meanwhile, I'm sitting here, able bodied and getting nothing done on my boat. Though...I can say that I'm not sitting around doing nothing.... Short of work, I'm building 4 book cases at my step dads shop, getting the house ready for 2 family dinners ( 2 days in a row!...and I'm the cook! )....plus I just got done building a new computer for my wife and went through my system and changed power supplies, cases, video card and other reconfigurations along with doing some work on her old computer. I'm not done with them yet either.

But, I wish I were working on my boat.

Keep the pictures coming, someday I'll get a good burst of time to work on mine and get some good updates going. I may just take a week of vacation to do it this year.

 

[jcsftwre]

Dec-14th-2008

Dec-14th-2008

OK, Now that was fun!!! I got one layer on ? of the boat done with the 1 oz CSM. It took one gallon and that is about what the math worked out for what it should have been Now I got an idea of how many more gallons I will need to do the rest of the boat. About 8 to 10 more and that would include doing the transom brace that was not on the boat when I got it and the bottom. That guess may be on the high side so I will get a 5 gallon can to start with.

You can see the wet side, this is right after I got it down. Not dry yet. The white strip under the glass is not air thats the place the old stringers were. The white is where I sanded down more than the rest. I may have a few small bubbles but I poked most with a razer blade and got the air out the best I could.

I got about one half of the roll left about 15 to 17 foot of it or so. I have been a little slower to work these past weeks like today I was able to work about two hours again. That?s all it took for my back to tell me to stop.

Redfury,
Is your boat still outside? If so you should have a lot of snow on it by now. It snowed here today for the first time, they say we should be cold for the next few weeks. Cold here is around 32 or so. That beats the h&ll out of the 45 below I had in Alaska.

Maybe instead of building the things you have been you should build a shop to put the boat in. Yah! that will go over good with the wife.

You may have it right putting off the boat this is hard work for anyone do be doing.

 

[redfury]

Re: I would like to introduce myself, and talk about my rebuild.

Yup, the boat is outside. I suppose I should take a picture of it the way I've stored it the past couple of years. I could technically work in it if I wanted to.

However, I woke up to -30 windchills and the low tonight is going to be -17. Got a nice layer of ice on all the roads and was watching traffic this morning, the whole system is gridlock. Thank god I don't work Mondays! I get to sit here typing on the computer eating oatmeal

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Dec-13th-2008

Re: Dec-13th-2008

I was able to work for a little while today, I cut out some CSM for the first layer that will be used to reinforce the hull bottom.



I have to wait for the rest of my materials to show up, they were shipped out two days ago. From US Comp??


Someone please correct me if I am wrong on this.

As I been reading about doing fiberglass it seems one of the worse things to do it to use to much resin. I understand that makes for a weaker bond and it is really the glass mat that gives strength.

Sorta/kinda. Really the balance of materials, where the glass gives tensile strength and structure, and the resin holds the glass together, sticks it to things, and forces the fibers to move together, creates the strength. The ideal ratio is about 50/50 by weight. More resin than this doesn't add strength, just weight. Less resin subtracts strength *fast*.

What resin are you using?

So with that in mind when I layed my four small patches I done all of them (all 4 layers) at the same time. I put down resin then CSM then pushed the resin thru with my brush then another layer of resin (very little) pushed thru the resin and so on.

Is this a better way to do it than putting down one layer waiting for it to dry sanding then another layer waiting for it to dry sand and so on?

It seems I would get a better bond doing all the layers at once (not all down at once and pour on resin) No, but resin, csm, resin, csm, Woven so on. It seems this way you could better regulate the amount of resin used and not over saturate the cloth but still making sure it is wet sufficiently and all of the way thru.

What do you think???

You're working the ideal way, what's called wet on wet. The strongest bond happens when it's both chemical and mechanical. Chemical comes from the layers of resin being in the process of hardening when they're applied to each other. Mechanical comes from the resin working its way into scratches, pores, and cracks on a microscopic scale at the interface between the layers.. that's why you sand, to create a rougher surface for the resin to grip.

Poly forms relatively weak mechanical bonds, although with adequate prep work they can be strong enough. Epoxy is a ferocious glue that forms very strong mechanical bonds and even stronger chemical ones. Either way, it's ideal to work wet on wet so both kinds of bonds are formed.

A couple comments here on your pics:

First, are you using epoxy resin? If you are, check that the mat you're using is compatible...it looks from the pics like it is, but you'll want to make sure. Saturate a strip of mat with epoxy, wait a couple minutes, and it should easily deform in to a loose collection of saturated fibers, like a ball of string wet with resin.

If you're using poly, you should probably do a peel test. From the pics it looks like you've ground out the old glass from the interior of the hull, but there's still some dirt or materials in there. Once your glass cures, pick a couple spots where there are projections, bumps, or edges poking up. Grab one with a pliers and give it a hard yank, and see how well the glass sticks to the old hull. If it delaminates at the junction where the old glass meets new, you may have a problem.

Erik

 

[jcsftwre]

Re: I would like to introduce myself, and talk about my rebuild.

Eric,
I'm using poly resin for sure I believe there should not be a problem with the mat. The mat does turn into a loose bunch of strands of fibers after a few short minutes of being wet. Sort of a pain in the butt when it's time to push it down and make sure that is all saturated and set flat.

I did grind the inside of the boat real good. It does not look that way in the photos. Here is my guess as it sort of held true in the spots that I went through the hull. I think that the integrity of the original fiberglass was compromised by the spider cracks in it and also strained by wood rot. I feel one of the people that owned the boat before me done a rebuilt to it before I got it. The grass over the stringer was nothing more than mat with a little bit of resin. Sort of like a puffed up steel wool pad that was made stiff. Nothing really laid flat on the wood or the boat. I think they left the fiberglass exposed and not sealed very well and thru the years the hull was stained by rotting wood.


I will give it the yank test if I got out to work on it tonight. I can tell you this though the little patches that I first done almost looks like it melted (sort to speak) right into the hull. Some patches are a lot better looking than others. But I feel pretty safe in saying that it was a pretty good job for my first time. They look solid to me.

I?ll tug on the part that I did last night. There are only a few places that the FG mat had hairs still standing up but I?ll give them a tug and let you know later tonight or tomorrow in a post.

Thanks for the advice and the comments as always all comments are welcome even in time, if needed, constructive criticism.
Rick

 

[jonesg]

Re: I would like to introduce myself, and talk about my rebuild.

Too much resin causes the glass to float away from contacting the surface, its sounds strange but it can be seen on flat layups, excessive resin causes ripples and bumps, thats the glass floating in the top surface of the resin.
The correct amount of resin will look smoother because capillary action will hold the cloth against the surface.

re' stringer bedding, this illustration explained it for me...
the first diagram shows incorrect stringer bedding. The stringer is in contact with the glass and created a hard spot which will factures the glass. It looks like you've got this already in the original build.

the second dia shows the stringer raised off the hull, use the bedding material of your choice, but use it.

From the author, a marine surveyor;
"Example of hard spot caused by improper stringer design and installation. Bottom hinges around hard edge of stringer wood core. At right, wood core is elevated by a soft material so that it does not touch the hull skin and the load is bourn by the more flexible tabbing. "

Heres the link for more reading on hull failures,
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/HullFailP2.htm

 

[jcsftwre]

Re: I would like to introduce myself, and talk about my rebuild.

Too much resin causes the glass to float away from contacting the surface, its sounds strange but it can be seen on flat layups, excessive resin causes ripples and bumps, thats the glass floating in the top surface of the resin.
The correct amount of resin will look smoother because capillary action will hold the cloth against the surface.

re' stringer bedding, this illustration explained it for me...
the first diagram shows incorrect stringer bedding. The stringer is in contact with the glass and created a hard spot which will factures the glass. It looks like you've got this already in the original build.

the second dia shows the stringer raised off the hull, use the bedding material of your choice, but use it.

From the author, a marine surveyor;
"Example of hard spot caused by improper stringer design and installation. Bottom hinges around hard edge of stringer wood core. At right, wood core is elevated by a soft material so that it does not touch the hull skin and the load is bourn by the more flexible tabbing. "

Heres the link for more reading on hull failures,
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/HullFailP2.htm

Here is what the stringers looked like before I took them out.

I can see what you?re saying about the stringers that were in this boat before. They did cause the hull to spider crack and I can see where the square edge of the stringer was set against the hull without a base such as glue or Peanut Butter. I also see areas that have experienced hull deflection to the point of spider cracks running along the length of the boat hull on the outer edges. The last person to rebuild this boat did not take the time to investigate and read about what was needed to do the rebuild properly.

Examples are the first photo is from the reading you gave me.

Here is the evidence found on my boat hull

I think these two photos are an exact match of damage done to the bottom from deflection.

NOTE: The cracks in the bottom photo line up directly to the place that the edge of the deck met up with the hull! Compair it to the top photo.

The whole hull bottom must have acted like a big fat belly going in and out.

I think after the reading you gave to me my guess was pretty correct about the black bleeding into the hull. This hull was way too thin for the stringer spacing that was put into the boat. Perhaps the hull was thicker when it was new but I feel one of the owners that rebuilt the boat had sanded off much of the thickness without replacing it with new FG.


GREAT READING!!!!!! Thank you very much. I'm also going to read more from other pages that I can get the links from.

Like all of Hull Design Defects part 1 & Hull Design Defects Part two

Rick

 

[Matrex]

Re: I would like to introduce myself, and talk about my rebuild.

re' stringer bedding, this illustration explained it for me...
the first diagram shows incorrect stringer bedding. The stringer is in contact with the glass and created a hard spot which will factures the glass. It looks like you've got this already in the original build.

the second dia shows the stringer raised off the hull, use the bedding material of your choice, but use it.

Heres the link for more reading on hull failures,
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/HullFailP2.htm

Jonesg,
I am to the point of putting my stringers in. I understand the concept, but confused by the implementation. I used epoxy for my transom and will continue that with my stringers. The peanut butter I mixed up for the transom filets dried rock hard. If I use that to bed my stringers as suggested in some threads, will it really minimize these hard contact points? Seems to me the PB will be just as bad. I can see using a softer material like PL with some flex. Am I missing something?

Thanks & Rick - looking good, man!