Is this the future of towing??

marlboro180

Lieutenant Junior Grade
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1,164
Re: Is this the future of towing??

Has anyone here driven the VW TDI package?? I really want to. I just want to see if I love the low end torque or hate the lack of top end power.

I've driven several of the TDI 's and have found them to be very nice to drive overall. Early ones had a tendancy to soot up the intakes which would eventually take out the turbo. 2500 sheckles!

A friend has had 2 thus far and got rid of them due to the turbo issue but has heard they worked this issue out in '07.

50 MPG average on a recent 650 mile run at superlegal speeds. Beat the thing pretty hard the whole way and loves 80+ mph. With 200k on the clock to boot!

Good grunt off the line , more than one might imagine. Torque is good pretty much all the way within 800 rpm of redline.

If you get a chance , drive one. I hardly notice the diesel sound or smell. But to be fair I do drive a Sprinter T1N Cargo w/ the 5 cyl. turbodiesel so I'm kinda acclimated to it.
 

scipper77

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Re: Is this the future of towing??

I've driven several of the TDI 's and have found them to be very nice to drive overall. Early ones had a tendancy to soot up the intakes which would eventually take out the turbo. 2500 sheckles!

A friend has had 2 thus far and got rid of them due to the turbo issue but has heard they worked this issue out in '07.

I was thinking about this and wondering if heavy equipment trucks (dumptrucks, tractor trailers, etc..) have the same issues with there turbo diesels? Also this kinda makes me wonder if these diesels aren't as clean as all of the hype makes it seem? I Have seen carbon build up on the exhaust of gas powered cars that needed a tuneup. I wonder if the turbo failing in this was indicates another issue with the engine or if it's just an unavoidable design characteristic.

I guess that the reason I'm thinking about this so much is that in my head I see this little truck towing this big boat with the turbo spooled way up all the time. Kind of like when a loaded dump truck first takes off from stop and black smoke is pouring out of the pipes.
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
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22,783
Re: Is this the future of towing??

Black smoke is pretty much gone from modern heavy-duty diesels. Has been since the first electronic ones came out in the late 80's. If you see a puff of black smoke from a modern diesel it has either been tampered with or it is broked or both. Older mechanically governed diesels blew black to enhance acceleration, but they have had that figured out electronically for years. All 2002 heavies and newer should never show any visible smoke, period.

This soot up the intake thing is probably due to EGR. If done properly and nothing is broked, EGR on a diesel is not that much to worry about. Any design, whether for efficiency, emissions, or both can have failures or inherent design issues, but I would be totally surprised if VW had a major design flaw that guaranteed they'd be eating warranty claims, and that they would not subsequently do something to fix it.

The turbo "spooled up all the time" is kinda one of the things done to drop emissions and control smoke. The reason the old Dump truck blew black early was because the turbo was not spooled up . . . ;) They've even gone to twin turbos, one lighter weight higher speed for low speed boost, and a larger one for higher loads and boost requirements. Waste gates allow the same thing, mega boost early that can be "dumped" if necessary.

Many of the latest diesels use both EGR and Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) which is basically injecting Urea into a catalytic converter. This dramatically reduces NOx as does EGR. The combo gets them where they need to be. Some manufactures are SCR only, some EGR only. Both are very clean with the SCR negative being you need to fill up with both diesel and a splash of cow pee (Urea) :eek:

Neither of these strategies is about smoke though. Smoke is controlled with a Continuously Regenerating Trap (CRT) or Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF). They are the same thing, but they "trap" particulates and then burn them while "regenerating" to prevent plugging when exhaust temps are high (high load conditions).

Yes, lots of stuff to go wrong, buuuuut I have every confidence that manufacturers will get it right. Maybe not first year of big changes (1994, 1998, 2004, 2007 and the biggie is 2010).

There was a time when these diesels were not as clean as they claimed or certified. It was the late 90's and they all got caught manipulating emissions electronically for fuel economy. Caterpillar, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, Volvo etc. paid huge fines, and they had to "upgrade" all of the electronics so that they were 100% compliant all of the time. Today they are as clean as they say they are with a few very minor exceptions where the manufacturer made some cleaner and some not as and then averaged their emissions. The Mercruiser V6s of today are an example of this type of exemption. They cleaned up the V8s more than they had to and then used those "credits' to sell the V6s. Sort of like a bank and trade scheme but internal to that manufacturer.
 

gixxerjim

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Mar 14, 2007
Messages
171
Re: Is this the future of towing??

I apologize to anyone I may have offended by being political, I just wanted to make it clear that when people talk about new vehicle changes and the costs/benefits, cleanliness and arab independence are often forgotten and all that matters to some is the short term dollar....

I would love a vehicle that gets 30mpg, tows 5000lbs, holds 2 adults and 3 kids, and can be bought with some effort at under $25000. It seems diesel is the only thing with potential for my needs...
 

skargo

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Re: Is this the future of towing??

I'm sticking with my old hotrod Cummins with it's smoke on demand feature, it is an awesome tailgater repellent. :cool:
 

quackaddict1

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May 30, 2008
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Re: Is this the future of towing??

A good question for all of you, the biggest thing I see as a hindrance to bringing Euro Diesels to the US is the emission standards, seems theirs are dirtier than ours, but get better millage. Ours are cleaner, but burn more fuel.

Is there not a defined amount of emission you can produce from one gallon of fuel? ie if you burn one gallon you will at worst get say 50lbs/gallon or emission (making numbers up here)?

What im getting at is this, if a vehicle gets 35mpg but produces 50lbs/gallon for one gallon, it has a rating of 1.42 lbs/mile. If we mess with it to "clean it up" and get the emissions to 35lbs/gallon and reduce the mileage to 20mpg (well documented in most of the new diesels, just look at the old 5.3 cummins, and the crap they have now, or the 6.4 powerstroke that replaced the 7.3), we now have a rating of 1.75lbs/mile. Are we really getting anywhere with reducing emissions? Shouldn't we be worried with mileage instead of emissions?
 

QC

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Re: Is this the future of towing??

Mileage is mostly about CO2 emissions. All else cannot really be separated the way you are trying to. You can have a very efficient diesel which puts out 12 grams of NOx per hp per hour, and a very inefficient diesel that puts out 1 gram per hp per hour (gm/hp/hr). Particulate is trapped and some is oil control, so that emission constituent is somewhat independent of efficiency.

The fact is that Europeans think we are irresponsible because we do not run diesels. California emission gurus think we are killing ourselves with NOx and particulates if we do. I call it the Emissions Du Jour Syndrome and it has messed up a lot of good technology. If global warming is the concern, go all diesel. If PM and NOx are the concern, gasoline hybrids are pretty good, but not as good on C02 as diesel. If you want both today, then natural gas, and if you want everything and believe in pink ponies with wings, go hydrogen.

"One Man's Solution is Another Man's Pollution"
 

rjlipscomb

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Jun 2, 2009
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Re: Is this the future of towing??

I'm waiting for the mini-nuke plant that will give me 20k lbs towing and no emissions. It seems we have suit case nukes why not small engine replacement nukes?

Or, can we finally have the engine plant that converts water (H2O) into hydrogen fuel to burn and oxygen (O2)?

Or, are simply not there yet technology wise? Then continue drilling for the oil we have while we continue to advance our technological capabilities! One day, this whole issue will be a foreign concept to the people on earth (years/decades or longer from now).
 

alumi numb

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Messages
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Re: Is this the future of towing??

it's hard to see a big truck as being economical but in a way it can be.
mines a 04.5 qcab dodge cummins 325/600 6 spd two wheel drive.
handling and braking are excllent and get 23 mpg if i stay the speed limit.
hills don't exist and passing happens fast plus you can pull anything you want, anything.
22 ft starcraft islander and i just idle up the ramp, never touch the pedal.
right now it has 78k is paid for and these trucks can go a million miles.
never get tired of listening to that cummins and on shut down the whole truck shakes like heck, love it.
something that can go that long and you enjoy it sounds pretty economical to me.
 

mralda

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Jul 20, 2009
Messages
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Re: Is this the future of towing??

The mileage for the European Ford Explorer seems optimistic. I own a diesel Kia Sorento (in Guatemala) and regularly pull a Zodiac 650 Pro Open with a T-Top and 115 Evinrude ETec. Guatemala is fairly mountainous and I can barely feel the trailer behind me (2300 pounds). I've been a diesel fan since my early twenties, when I owned a 2-door, convertible Mitsubishi Montero. Since then I'va had a diesel Nissan Patrol, a 6.2 liter Chevy Suburban, a Mitsubishi pick-up (L200) and my current Kia. I'm amazed and curious that only very few vehicles in the US have the option of diesel engines. By the way, I get around 28 mpg on the Kia (2.8 liter Common Rail Turbo engine).
 

scipper77

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Messages
2,106
Re: Is this the future of towing??

it's hard to see a big truck as being economical but in a way it can be.
mines a 04.5 qcab dodge cummins 325/600 6 spd two wheel drive.
handling and braking are excllent and get 23 mpg if i stay the speed limit.
hills don't exist and passing happens fast plus you can pull anything you want, anything.
22 ft starcraft islander and i just idle up the ramp, never touch the pedal.
right now it has 78k is paid for and these trucks can go a million miles.
never get tired of listening to that cummins and on shut down the whole truck shakes like heck, love it.
something that can go that long and you enjoy it sounds pretty economical to me.

Big trucks are certainly economical for what they are intended to be used for. But there is no way it is economical to have a big ruck as a daily driver because it is needed as an occasional tow vehicle, and seasonally for most I might add. That's why I am a little excited about the potential of a 30mpg tow vehicle.
 

Bigprairie1

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2,568
Re: Is this the future of towing??

I have a '05 GM 2500HD Duramax diesel and that truck has been bullitt proof and unstoppable. It really has been a great truck, however its wayyy, wayy more than what I actually use and need so I'm looking at downsizing it.
What I would really love to see (and have) is a 1500 GM (1/2t) with a 4.5 to 5 litre Diesel with say...400-450 lb-ft of torque and delivering 25-30mpg combined mileage all day long (not just highway) and could haul 5000-7000lbs without strain, wear or road whip.:)
That would be the sweet spot for me. Lighter, better ride, better mileage, easier in town, better suited for the way I live and haul without having to go completely tiny or 'gas'.
Hopefully GM will be introducing its mid-range size diesels engines before too long and hopefully in the 1/2 ton trucks finally.
My two bits.:)
BP:D:cool:
 

scipper77

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Re: Is this the future of towing??

Yes here, and the jeep diesel wasn't well liked and got poor (relative) fuel mileage.


Ian

All jeep arguments aside, what was the tow rating for the liberty diesel while it was produced? Because I live in NY where small diesels are not sold (until this year) I completely missed out on the liberty diesel. It sounds like the perfect car (or truck depending on who you ask) for my needs.

I doubt that we will ever see gas mileage as high as in Europe as we regulate emissions more.
 

NYBo

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Re: Is this the future of towing??

All jeep arguments aside, what was the tow rating for the liberty diesel while it was produced? Because I live in NY where small diesels are not sold (until this year) I completely missed out on the liberty diesel. It sounds like the perfect car (or truck depending on who you ask) for my needs.

I doubt that we will ever see gas mileage as high as in Europe as we regulate emissions more.
It was rated for 5000#, IIRC.
 

alangf

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Apr 12, 2009
Messages
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Re: Is this the future of towing??

The European Ford ranger diesel gets 40 mpg highway (34 in mixed driving) and tows up to 3500 lbs. and that's the base model. The top model diesel gets 32 mpg on the highway and is rated to tow over 6500 lbs.

Recently (this year) "car" makers have begun to produce diesels that are 50 states emissions legal. I'm hoping it won't be long until we can have a tow vehicle that doesn't kill us on gas as a daily driver!


So what does everyone think? Thumbs up or thumbs down to this?

I'm all for efficiency but the thought of Ford being in the mix turns me off. With Ford involved there are two things that are a nearly sure thing:
1. Someone else had the idea first.
2. Ford put together a copy of the original idea that is inferior to the original.

I'm sure there are those who would disagree strongly but bear in mind that the most impressive Ford "first" in the last 70 years is that they are the first (and still only) manufacturer to have their senior executives charged criminally with negligent homicide for their complacency in stupidly designed fuel systems in multiple vehicles. They determined it was cheaper to pay off the next of kin of those burned to death than to fix the problem.
 

skargo

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Re: Is this the future of towing??

I'm all for efficiency but the thought of Ford being in the mix turns me off. With Ford involved there are two things that are a nearly sure thing:
1. Someone else had the idea first.
2. Ford put together a copy of the original idea that is inferior to the original.

I'm sure there are those who would disagree strongly but bear in mind that the most impressive Ford "first" in the last 70 years is that they are the first (and still only) manufacturer to have their senior executives charged criminally with negligent homicide for their complacency in stupidly designed fuel systems in multiple vehicles. They determined it was cheaper to pay off the next of kin of those burned to death than to fix the problem.

I have never been a Ford fan, but they are more American than GM and Chrysler, who took their bailout money and failed months later, just like most of us predicted.

At least they aren't sucking off the taxpayer's teat. For that I give them kudos.
 

This_lil_fishy

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Messages
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Re: Is this the future of towing??

All jeep arguments aside, what was the tow rating for the liberty diesel while it was produced? Because I live in NY where small diesels are not sold (until this year) I completely missed out on the liberty diesel. It sounds like the perfect car (or truck depending on who you ask) for my needs.

I doubt that we will ever see gas mileage as high as in Europe as we regulate emissions more.

Sorry, it sounded like I was knocking the little Liberty. I drove one for 4 years for work and it was indestructable (300000Km). We looked at the diesels but they really weren't that much better mileage wise then the gas engines (at the time). So we just stuck with the gassers. I double checked, and the diesel is not longer availalble here, and hasn't been for a few years. It used a common rail fuel delivery system that was fairly outdated and inefficient. I haven't seen to many around here, but there are a few.

Ian
 

scipper77

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Re: Is this the future of towing??

I have never been a ford fan until around 10 years ago. Around then Ford really picked up on quality for most of there line. Right now the reliability is second to none, Things like interior layout and fit and finish are still pretty hit and miss but not bad overall. And for me price can't be beat even after you consider depreciation. When I bought my '07 focus I wanted a civic/corolla or impreza but for the same features I would have paid $6,000 more and still not have gotten everything my ford has (like the heated seats).
 
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