Is this the future of towing??

[H20Rat]

Re: Is this the future of towing??

And my response will always be, "where is the data showing that these engines are not designed to be operated within their operating range and controlled power output?"

exactly! As others mentioned, engines are designed for a specific rpm, going above that can cause damage, but what people don't realize is that lugging the engine down is just as likely if not more to cause problems. Overheating is the first sign, but you are also far more likely to detonate and take out a bearing. As well as a much higher load factor on the gears, and depending on circumstances, WORSE mileage by staying at lower rpms.

 

[QC]

Re: Is this the future of towing??

depending on circumstances, WORSE mileage by staying at lower rpms.

Need to be a little careful here as it is pretty much a physics thing that Otto cycle engines are most efficient at wide open throttle. Not WOT RPM as in prop selection, but at the point where the volumetric efficiency is at it's peak and everything is doing it's job best. A full gulp of air and a good point for burning all of the fuel that gulp will allow. Typically very near peak torque and they are mathematically most efficient here. Measured as BSFC (Brake Specific Fuel Consumption) in lbs/fuel per hp/hour. Usually considered a poor point to run gasoline engines for extended periods, but many diesels can do it no problem for 10,000 - 20,000 hours.

This does not mean a vehicle will be most efficient at this point as hydrodynamics and aerodynamics and gearing and tire deflection and propeller and drive efficiency all get their set of rules . . .

 

[pmillar]

Re: Is this the future of towing??

One reason not mentioned for higher diesel costs relative to gasoline here in the states is the tax structure. Our roads are often financed through fuel taxes. With big rigs causing a disproportionate amount of road damage, the logic has been to hit diesel with higher tax rates (it varies state to state) So a gallon of diesel will generally have a higher tax burden than a gallon of gas. I have to say "generally" since I'm not familiar with tax rates in all fifty states.

 

[reelfishin]

Re: Is this the future of towing??

I was told by Ford Guy today to wait until next year to buy. He said there will be a 3.5s engine available in the 150s that can tow 11k and gets 28-30 running empty. V6 gas with twin sequential turbos. Sounds promising.

That would be a turbo charged gasoline engine, not exactly what I'd consider a good towing option with all the added heat that a turbo produces. A gas engine doesn't react the same way to a turbo as does a diesel either, so a turbo charged engine will no doubt have a rather high RPM operating range. There's no way I'd want to own a gas turbo anything once it gets some age or miles on it. The maintenance costs would be too high. Turbo chargers are expensive. If past turbo vehicles are any clue as to how the new 3.5L will run and drive, I'll pass.
If they wish to build a US built Ranger with a diesel, or even an F100 or F150, which ever they choose to call it with a small US built diesel, I'd be game to try one, but beyond that, I'll stick with my old truck.

 

[QC]

Re: Is this the future of towing??

My son's 180 bhp, 1.8 liter turbo'd Volkswagen begs to differ with you ^^^^^ 105,000 city miles of total neglect. I've replaced the clutch. Nothing else. No cooling system, exhaust or turbo components have ever been touched. That's 100 bhp per liter which equates to 350 from the 3.5 . . .

Every heavy duty truck engine made in the US for the last 50ish years is turbocharged and I don't agree that the feel is different. Yes the gasoline engine's operating range will typically be higher in RPM than a comparable diesel, but not much anymore. And the feel is the same. Same turbo technology only better today. And compounded or twin turbos are VERY common now too.

If you design an engine for turbocharging there is no reason it can't live.

Edit: For clarity, I TOTALLY agree that the turbo itself, and the aftercooler for that matter, are additional components and they can fail. But they are not inherently unreliable nor are they inherently bad for an engine.

 

[H20Rat]

Re: Is this the future of towing??

My son's 180 bhp, 1.8 liter turbo'd Volkswagen begs to differ with you ^^^^^ 105,000 city miles of total neglect. I've replaced the clutch. Nothing else. No cooling system, exhaust or turbo components have ever been touched. That's 100 bhp per liter which equates to 350 from the 3.5 . . .

my subaru wrx agrees with you. 110k miles, absolutely nothing touched besides standard maintenance. thousands of miles of towing. Original clutch yet even. I'm at 273 wheel horse power, so somewhere north of 350 or so at the crank, all on a little 2.0 liter 4 cylinder. (175 hp/liter!)

as far as turbo costs, I can have my factory TD04 turbo completely re-worked with all new seals/bearings for about $150-$200. Used turbos can be had for well under $100. Its right on top of the engine, I can have it off in 30 minutes or less, with beer break included.

People are generally turned off to turbocharged vehicles because the domestics DID royally screw them up for many years. (anyone remember the original turbo olds, the turbocharged mustangs, or the dodges? all horrendously bad in one way or another, and all EXTREMELY unreliable) Imports have been doing turbos, and doing them well, for a long time.

 

[scipper77]

Re: Is this the future of towing??

Gotta agree with you guys on turbo's lasting. My 1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse had 14x,000 miles on it when the car was rear ended and totaled. I beat the snot out of that car for 100,000 miles. It did blow some smoke under high boost at the end but still got 28 mpg. I loved (LOVED!!!) that car. The low end from that turbo felt soooo good. And the faster you drove the faster the car wanted to go (almost no turbo lag at high rpm's).

I don't expect a diesel to feel the same as my turbo'd sports car did but I'm dying to see what it feels like to drive a small diesel car like a TDI VW. Heck I'm holding out for a small diesel truck but I may just end up with a small diesel car if I get sick of waiting.

 

[QC]

Re: Is this the future of towing??

I don't expect a diesel to feel the same as my turbo'd sports car

You'll be pleasantly surprised then . . .

 

[gtochris]

Re: Is this the future of towing??

I'd LOVE a small capable Diesel.

Jeep tried with the Liberty and it only lasted a year.
Grand Cherokee was the same.

MB, BMW, VW are too expensive and technical for most people to consider.

Hyundai offers a Diesel Santa Fe, Subaru offers a Diesel Forester that can pull 4,000lbs+ all overseas though

I drove the 2002 Tahoe 800 highway miles this weekend and it cost me $145.00! it did 18MPG going but only got 16 on my way back, I know it is heavy and square, but if a vehicle was offered that could offer similar capability (towing wise) with improved MPG I'd be all over it!

I really think I'll end up with a AWD V6 Equinox or similar vehicle next, but even that doesnt break mid 20's I'm excited about the F150 Eco-boost, butttt- it seems the real world economy of other ecoboost models isnt anything real exciting so I'm not holding my breath.