Is this the future of towing??

[reelfishin]

Re: Is this the future of towing??

I'm all for seeing a US sold Ford Ranger Diesel, just so the added cost doesn't offset any mileage savings or the fact that a full size truck with a gas engine may still out pull it. If you have to spend an addition $5,000 or more for the diesel engine option, you can buy a lot of gas for the same money and drive a less expensive truck.

I've owned mostly nothing but Ford products, the few vehicles that weren't were all nightmares. Three Toyotas, two Dodges, and two GM trucks, all had major issues from day one. I've yet to have a bad Ford. So far, every Ford I've owned has gone well over 200,000 miles with no problems. My last Toyota threw a rod at 12,000 miles, the trans failed at 3,000 mi., 7,200 mi., and again at 52,000 miles. All were highway miles and the most I towed back then was an aluminum bass boat.

I am a firm believer in diesel power, not just for the mileage, but for the reduced maintenance and longevity of a diesel engine.
What I do fear is that as diesels get more high tech, they get less reliable.
There's a lot to be said for the less efficient, older mechanical pump diesels when it comes to simplicity and reliability.

 

[Kiwi Phil]

Re: Is this the future of towing??

Scipper77
thanks for the pm.
I am not sure I know much about small diesels (as Kevin and Dunaruna will testify too....gidday Kevin...how are things).
I have had small trucks (Toyota Dyna) with Diesels in the past, and they are a superior motor for economy, maint. costs, and when it comes to work, a Toyota 2.7L D just outperforms a 5L+ V8 every moment of every day.
The only drawback was the greasy diesel. Then I always kept a pair of heavy rubber gloves in a big rag behind the seat to use when filling up....I hate the damned stuff on my hands.

Now I have this Ford Ranger XLT with a 3L turbo Diesel. The thing will pull 3,000kg, and to get a petrol equivalent I have to go the the Nissan Patrol 4.8L petrol which is horrendous on petrol, and it has to be pre-ordered from Japan...they only import Diesels.

I also honestly believe it is faster than its petrol equivalent....and it seems strange.....when I give the wife's V6 3L the stick, it sort of sounds powerful and sort of gets up and goes. The Diesel is quite different....it just seems to slip away....no roar or change in anything....and it is very fast.
Economy is brilliant.
So far I haven't had a problem filling.....hands are clean....maybe a different filler pipe on the vehicle.
BUT, when I start it up and when it idles, it does have that distinctive diesel sound, but as soon as you accelerate it goes quiet.

I have a brother who is an Englishman. His wife has some stupid make of car, that to us is small etc, but it has a little diesel in it, (I might be wrong but I think it is under 1L), and when they are down here with us, she talks about getting 70 or 80 mpg from it, and the brother keeps telling us not to laugh...the darned thing flies, is quiet, and very comfortable, and the service intervals are 2x the interval of petrol, and half the cost.

I believe, and Kevin will correct me if I am wrong, there is a new generation of diesel engine on the market, not to be confused with the ones of previous years.The Europeans and Asians have been using them for a long time, and now the Aussies have caught on to them.....can't speak for the Americans.

I also wonder what is doing on with the kids. Caterpillar is now a designer label.

When people talk about a manufacturer 'may release a D powered xyz vehicle' in the future, and they are working on it now.....I think you have to understand these manufacturers are already using a wide range of D motors in other parts of the world already.

Cheers
Phillip

 

[dwco5051]

Re: Is this the future of towing??

The diesel Ranger might make a good replacement for my old Jeep Wrangler if it had a shorter wheelbase for getting around on log roads. The jeep does have a hitch and I use it quite often to tow my 12' aluminum boat to small lakes. My vehicles have to double as work trucks so to pull heavy loads I rely on my 2003 GMC 2500HD diesel for that. When you haul flatbeds with construction equipment such as skidsteers or log trailers there is no substitute for power. When towing my 20' bass boat I wouldn't know it is behind me if I didn't look in the mirrors. Overall milage for 60,000 miles has been just a fraction over 18mpg though it has dropped about 1/2 mpg since I changed over to heavy lugged offroad tires. Everything is a trade off. I have from time to time lightly loaded log trailers and pulled them through the woods with the Jeep on bad roads that are too narrow and crooked to get around with the GMC. Outside of oil and filter changes the only repair to the GMC has been a set of rear brake pads. The youngest boy has a 5 year old Toyota Tundra that is a money pit. They do not take well to off road use. Steering box is weak and easily damaged.

What is the future of tow vehicles? In the USA who knows now that our government is running two auto companies. If you have a good tow vehicle hold on to it, you may never be able to get another. Most all of my vehicles have been GM over the years with a few Ford trucks and one heavy duty Dodge pickup. All have served me well. If I have to replace one in the future it will probably be a Ford since that is the only independent mfg left and they may still make real trucks. "These are the times that try men's souls"

 

[QC]

Re: Is this the future of towing??

....gidday Kevin...how are things)

Hey Phil, howzit hanging there? How's Hayden's guitar habit going?

when I start it up and when it idles, it does have that distinctive diesel sound, but as soon as you accelerate it goes quiet.

Extremely lean at idle, so they still rattle some. Turbos are natural mufflers, so the flow gets it spinning more and voila. Sweet.

I have a brother who is an Englishman. His wife has some stupid make of car, that to us is small etc, but it has a little diesel in it, (I might be wrong but I think it is under 1L), and when they are down here with us, she talks about getting 70 or 80 mpg from it, and the brother keeps telling us not to laugh...the darned thing flies, is quiet, and very comfortable, and the service intervals are 2x the interval of petrol, and half the cost.

I believe it, but Americans need to be reminded that it's an Imperial Gallon and is 20% larger. I think it would actually be 70 x .836 to be hyper correct, so 70 MPG becomes 58 MPG (us gallon)

I believe, and Kevin will correct me if I am wrong, there is a new generation of diesel engine on the market, not to be confused with the ones of previous years.The Europeans and Asians have been using them for a long time, and now the Aussies have caught on to them.....can't speak for the Americans.

Yes, high speed, small displacement diesels are amazing today. It is not technology messing us up here . . . it is marketing and emissions.

First, American emission laws and emotional stuff suggested that diesels were killing us all. Europeans think diesels are saving the planet. This is why I am so jaded on this topic and should never post about it, but I can't help it because I deal with it every day . . . Ahhhhhhh!!!

Second, GM really messed us up 30 years ago by stuffing V8, naturally aspirated diesels into cars. They used engines originally designed for gasoline and they were Piles of Carp!! People here just do not think a small diesel can be fun to drive. Sad thing is that they are more fun to drive!!

On maintenance costs the scary issue with diesel is always fuel system components. If they fail, you shell out big money. A simple engine miss can be a couple of grand repair. I don't see that going away unless injectors are less than $100 and they are easy to diagnose. Maybe a turbo down the trail too. I don't worry about basic engine components at all.

Strictly from an economics point of view though, I think gasoline wins out up to about 150,000 miles or so if diesel is 15% more per unit. At that price the daily fuel efficiency benefits disappear and the initial price premium cannot be recovered.

With that said, I would kill for a diesel 3 series, or a diesel Audi or even a diesel Golf. Great cars, great engines. Super fun to drive. My boss in the UK has a diesel Audi A8, and I think it makes around 350 bhp. Awesome stuff.

BTW, you can get that good low end feel with a turboed gasoline equivalent. Anybody that has driven an A4, GTI or a SAAB with a manual transmission will know what I am talking about.

 

[Shizzy]

Re: Is this the future of towing??

Ill agree with everything that has been said to the positive.

I just spent 3 weeks In Poland (Honeymoon) and I was suprised at how many vehicles were desiel powered. EVERYTHING can be purchased with it. I even saw a Dodge Caravan with a Turbo desiel and manual transmission. there are also Jeeps and Dodge caliber's with them as well. Many of the cars we can get here that are also sold there have that option so the technology is available, just not to us.

My wifes Grand father was driving us around in his Opel (not sure what model) and I didnt realize it was a desiel untill he told me. it was quiet, didnt smell and had suprisingly quick acceleration.

Since I pull only a small boat, I would glady replace my truck with one similar with a nice turbo desiel if it meant 10-15 more MPG and a few cents cheaper per gallon if it performed like that opel did.

 

[scipper77]

Re: Is this the future of towing??

I know this is an old thread but it is my thread so bear with me...

I was reading this artuicle today

http://www.thecarconnection.com/mar...2-ford-ranger-not-coming-to-the-u-s-heres-why

The article reminded me of this thread, and since this thread for some strange reason is one of my favorite all time threads I thought I would dredge it back up to see if anyone wants to add anything new here.

I'm pretty P'd off by the article that I posted. A year or 2 ago modern diesel manufacturers had finally made small diesel engines that were capable of being 50 state legal. I thought that it would only be another year or 2 before we would finally start seeing the small diesels that Europeans have been driving for years.

Now it looks like we will never see those awesome engines unless they are produced here in the US.

I'm very disappointed as I am chomping at the bit to get a small diesel tow vehicle that can get 30 mpg as a daily driver. I just don't see the down side to these things. I suppose it might get a little annoying replacing all of the mechanical components that die during the 300-400,000 mile engine life (at least that's the reputation of a diesel engine).

Anybody know of any small diesels that are currently available in a truck? I think Audi may offer something but I can't afford an Audi.

 

[NYBo]

Re: Is this the future of towing??

There is a big problem with a vast increase in the use of Diesel in this country: Refineries here use a process that results in a greater percentage of gasoline than Diesel from each barrel of oil, whereas the situation is reversed in Europe. In fact, Europe is sometimes in the position of having to dump its excess gasoline production on the market because of the low demand vs Diesel (and heating oil).

 

[Biged007]

Re: Is this the future of towing??

NYBo
You hit that nail partially right on the head. The thing is now that the diesels are that much more efficient and gaining ground in the market place the thing that scares me is the *&^^*^ that produce it or need i remind all that it wasn't too long ago that diesel hit close to $5.00 per gallon and home heating was over $4.00

 

[QC]

Re: Is this the future of towing??

Now it looks like we will never see those awesome engines unless they are produced here in the US.

How do you glean that form this article? I don't . . .

Anybody know of any small diesels that are currently available in a truck? I think Audi may offer something but I can't afford an Audi.

Mahindra but there are distribution issues . . .

GM 4.5 liter being discussed

Refineries here use a process that results in a greater percentage of gasoline than Diesel from each barrel of oil

I have confidence in the market's ability to react to this . . .

need i remind all that it wasn't too long ago that diesel hit close to $5.00 per gallon and home heating was over $4.00

Please be careful not to turn this into a Big Oil hating thread or I will have to close it . . .

Typically high oil prices increase the demand for diesel efficiency so that might be a good thing. However, when gasoline costs is 20% less per gallon than diesel then diesel and "Otto" (gasoline) cycle engines become close to the same operating costs when you consider the lower cost of intial purchase and run relatively low annual mileage (10,000/year). Remember diesel fuel itself contains 10% more energy per unit so you should pay more for it. The cycle then should eek out another 20 - 30% if you are comparing like for like which we never are . . . Also very dependent on the average speeds an loads (duty cycle) that we are comparing.

 

[scipper77]

Re: Is this the future of towing??

How do you glean that form this article? I don't . . .


Mahindra but there are distribution issues . . .

GM 4.5 liter being discussed

I actually read in the comments below the article that because Ford does not produce the diesel engines the ranger would get in the US they would have to import them. That would mean that they would have to pay an import tax on those engines making them more expensive.

As far as the Mahindra, I didn't follow the link yet but are they available in the US?

 

[QC]

Re: Is this the future of towing??

I actually read in the comments below the article that because Ford does not produce the diesel engines the ranger would get in the US they would have to import them. That would mean that they would have to pay an import tax on those engines making them more expensive.

As far as the Mahindra, I didn't follow the link yet but are they available in the US?

I thought maybe it came from from the comments but I didn't go that deep into those. I am guessing that it is speculation (speculating that it is speculation . . . ). It appeared to me the reason that Ford is not going to sell that particular truck here was that it is too close to the F150. As a strategy they wouldn't want to cannibalize their own market here

Not yet on the Mahindra. But I am going to guess that you will see more diesels in all applications as they are significantly lower on Greenhouse Gasses and better on MPG so any regulations that seek to decrease GHGs or improve fuel efficiency will favor diesel. Those types of regs are already coming or are here so just be a little patient if you want higher tech and smaller diesels. Already in the cards.

 

[cbavier]

Re: Is this the future of towing??

Depends what your towing. I tow a Pontoon that probably weights Gear and all probably 1800 LBS and a Fifth Wheel that weights 12,300 LBS fully Loaded. I need a truck. A real truck,... not some ***** footer.

 

[jeeperman]

Re: Is this the future of towing??

Depends what your towing. I tow a Pontoon that probably weights Gear and all probably 1800 LBS and a Fifth Wheel that weights 12,300 LBS fully Loaded. I need a truck. A real truck,... not some ***** footer.

No diesel or gas car will suit all applications.
No mid range diesel or gas truck will suit all applications.
No full size diesel or gas will suit all applications.
yadda yadda yadda

Oh, and "alternative fuels" does not equate to cheaper priced fuels.

 

[scipper77]

Re: Is this the future of towing??

No diesel or gas car will suit all applications.
No mid range diesel or gas truck will suit all applications.
No full size diesel or gas will suit all applications.
yadda yadda yadda

Oh, and "alternative fuels" does not equate to cheaper priced fuels.

Is diesel really an alternative fuel? My boat weighs around #2000 so it's just the right size for a ford ranger to tow.

Also I "feel" that because I do not rev my engine past 4000 rpm's the low end torque of a diesel will be more beneficial to me than the high RPM HP of a gas engine. I could be wrong on that one.

You are correct however that there is no vehicle that will suit all applications.

 

[scipper77]

Re: Is this the future of towing??

It appeared to me the reason that Ford is not going to sell that particular truck here was that it is too close to the F150. As a strategy they wouldn't want to cannibalize their own market here

Hence the end of production of the Explorer Sport Trac. If anything was redundant in my eyes it was the full cab F-150 short bed vs. the Sport Trac.

If you follow some other forums related to either Diesels or F-150's there is a lot of buzz about a diesel F-150 as well.

 

[QC]

Re: Is this the future of towing??

Also I "feel" that because I do not rev my engine past 4000 rpm's the low end torque of a diesel will be more beneficial to me than the high RPM HP of a gas engine. I could be wrong on that one.

This is odd . . . are you saying that you have a hard and fast rule at 4000 RPM for any engine you would own? Doesn't make sense, there are Motorcycles and F1 cars that turn 18,000+ RPM. That engine would have big issues at 4000 RPM, and there are diesels rated a 300 RPM, even slower. Ultimately you run an engine within the powerband it was designed for and what the transmission will allow. This is unique for all applications and combinations . . .

BTW, RPM doesn't hurt an engine unless you are floating valves. Will they live longer at 80% rated speed than 120% rated speed? Yes, but it is not like a ticking time bomb. Engines are supposed to be used within their intended operating range. The only way to get horsepower is with a combination of torque AND RPM, low or high doses of either or both

 

[scipper77]

Re: Is this the future of towing??

This is odd . . . are you saying that you have a hard and fast rule at 4000 RPM for any engine yo would own? Doesn't make sense, there are Motorcycles and F1 cars that turn 18,000+ RPM, yes that engine woudl have big issues at 4000 RPM, and there are diesels rated a 300 RPM, even slower. Ultimately you run an engine within the powerband it was designed for and what the transmission will allow. This is unique for all applications and combinations . . .

I just drive like an old man I guess. Even when I put the Hammer down I don't go past 4,000 rpm's before shifting. I know I could but I don't like to abuse my motor by driving it like an F1 car (not literally, you know what I mean).

I really need to drive a VW TDI or something to see if the torque curve really does suit my driving. I just think that I'd rather have more "power" at the rpm's I am cruising at than a motor that can make more total power based on an rpm range that I will seldomly ever see. Am I making any sense?

I used to have a turbo Mitsubishi Eclipse and the torque from the turbo was awesome. By around 3500 rpm's the motor was pulling HARD. I kind of assume that a diesel is similar even though I haven't driven one to be sure.

 

[QC]

Re: Is this the future of towing??

I added a little more after you saw my post, sorry . . . Yes, turbochargers account for most of what many consider the diesel "feel" and is very similar with a turboed gasoline engine. Trust me, naturally aspirated diesels, while still exhibiting good low-end torque, do not feel like they have any "grunt" whatsoever.

Professionally I've been around heavy vehicles so long that I appreciate any combo that is geared and applied properly for the application it is intended for. Personally, I have had four half ton type gasoline tow vehicles over the last 20 years. I pull long grades in 110 degree ambient conditions. I'll hum along at 4600 - 5000 RPM in 2nd for 20 minute stretches. There is nothing in any manual that I have seen that says I shouldn't, and all of those trucks ran fine when I got rid of them. I couldn't even guess at what damage I was doing if I was doing any. I am sure some will come on here and say "WTF, you idiot, my grandpa said never do that". And my response will always be, "where is the data showing that these engines are not designed to be operated within their operating range and controlled power output?"

 

[NYBo]

Re: Is this the future of towing??

I have confidence in the market's ability to react to this . . .

The reaction will be big increases in the price of Diesel and home heating oil, and a drop in gasoline price. The cost to switch the refineries to the process used in Europe would be extremely high, and the refiners are unlikely to stop production so they could do the switch. No income + monstrous costs = bad business model.

 

[dbkerley]

Re: Is this the future of towing??

I was told by Ford Guy today to wait until next year to buy. He said there will be a 3.5s engine available in the 150s that can tow 11k and gets 28-30 running empty. V6 gas with twin sequential turbos. Sounds promising.