Low vacuum reading

John_S

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You will find some background info here: http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=201288

After attaching fittings to the intake manifold, I was able to get the vacuum readings. After engine is warmed up, I am getting 14"HG at 600rpm. While some references indicate, that this is the very bottom of the good range, given Tony's response, it seems low. It does hold steady, with only slight variation +- 0.5"hg. Reading were taken with a new $20 Accutron gauge. My old (20+ years) noname gauge, only read 10".

I have read numerous links on the web dealing with vacuum readings. Most indicate that it is an indication of bad rings! But also lists many other items. Below, is what I have done so far, and near the bottom my forward plan for continued diag this weekend. For now, I have scrapped hauling the boat the three hours to camp, but might put it in a local lake on Sunday.


Done so far:

- I used carb cleaner to look for vacuum leaks around intake and carb, did not find any. But, took some new pait off carb base :( BTW, web reading indicated the prefered method for finding leaks was with propane. Could a plumbing portable torch cylinder be used for this? Is it better than carb cleaner? I also hear a slight whissle when my head is turned a certain way. I can't seem to issolate. It does not seem to be coming from carb (ear near airhorn).

- Rechecked base timing and is @ 10 degrees BTDC, per spec.

- RPMs above are from an Accutron gauge, not boat tach.

- The flex carb adjustment tool did not fit the idle mixture screws. I will pick-up a pair of narrow needle nose pliers to get at them. I do believe this is part of the low vac readings issue. If I provide some choke, the rpms do increase. This would lead me to believe it is too lean, or vacuum leak.


Plan:

- Get the mixture screws adjusted. If I can't make it bog from a too rich adjustment, probably indicates leak. I believe this is key, given the choke test increases rpms.

- Pull intake manifold and redo installation/torque sequence.

- Re-adjust hyd lifters. I carefully did the non-running procedure per merc manual. I do have rocker clips, so could do the running method.

- Pull plugs and examine, but doubt that will say much at this point. While I have rechecked oil to make sure water was not getting in, maybe the plugs might indicate that.

- Do a compression check. For this weekend it will be with my old cheapo gauge. I would have to buy parts, etc to do a leak down. If I have to go there, it will be after this weekend.


If the idle mixture screw adjustment gets the readings in 16-18" range, and it is not giving the choke/lean indication. OK to lake test on Sunday? or am I getting too paranoid?


I appreciate any thoughts or recommendations.
 

RCSConstruction

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Mar 23, 2007
Messages
549
Re: Low vacuum reading

Is this a new carb? The throttle shafts on Q-Jets develop leaks and need to be re-bushed.
The whistle you you speak of? The carb will make a slight wind noise, don't think I would classify it as a whistle. I had a true whistle on an old el camino and it was the carb base gasket.
A steady vacuum reading would rule out valves, IMO.
14 does not sound bad to me. I have 16 on my new 5.7 vortec.
I would also re-check the torque on the intake manifold. You did use sealer on the head side of the intake gasket, yes?
Did you degree the cam in or just line up marks? Is the idle nice and smooth?
Take care:)
 

John_S

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Re: Low vacuum reading

Q=Is this a new carb?
A=New rebuilt from I5 Auto.


Q=The throttle shafts on Q-Jets develop leaks and need to be re-bushed.
A=Sprayed the carb cleaner on the shafts, no increase in rpms.


Q=The whistle you you speak of? The carb will make a slight wind noise, don't think I would classify it as a whistle. I had a true whistle on an old el camino and it was the carb base gasket.
A=I have a 1/4" thick base gasket. It is the GM stock type to keep heat off the carb. Sprayed cleaner around circumference, no increase in rpms. I will try to use a tube to my ear, and see if I can find whistle.

I=A steady vacuum reading would rule out valves, IMO.
14 does not sound bad to me. I have 16 on my new 5.7 vortec.
R=Actually, that is a little encouraging.

Q=I would also re-check the torque on the intake manifold. You did use sealer on the head side of the intake gasket, yes?
A=No, merc only calls for sealer on the intake manifold bolt threads. I have a new stock reusable GM vortec intake gasket. Gray RTV along front and back of lifter valley.

Q=Did you degree the cam in or just line up marks?
A=I did not degree it, just lined the marks up. It was rotated numerous times, and I would have seen if I was a tooth off. It is a stock merc roller cam.


Q=Is the idle nice and smooth?
A=Originally, I thought it was. Just the occasional very slight stumble.


Take care
Thanks for the input.
 

RCSConstruction

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Messages
549
Re: Low vacuum reading

Everything I have read states to use sealant on the head side of the intake gasket. I don't know why chevy and volvo penta would call for it but not merc??
I would be interested in the cam specs as a roller cam is a little more aggressive with a tighter valve overlap. like 110-112*. As you know, this will lower vacuum.
I have had numerous rebuilt Q-Jets with the throttle problem. Do you see a bronze bushing in the shaft or a POS plastic one? Q-Jet's are very finicky carbs. I never did master dialing them in, that's why I finally gave up on them, damn good carbs when done right though.
The way I was taught to read a plug correctly is to run it hard and shut off as quickly (safley) as possible. Do not let it idle.
Good luck my friend, sorry i couldn't be more help.
 

John_S

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Re: Low vacuum reading

Everything I have read states to use sealant on the head side of the intake gasket. I don't know why chevy and volvo penta would call for it but not merc??

I'll will check around some more on this. If it is only a Merc thing, then might try it. I know that pre-vortec heads was common to use sealant. The vortec uses a much different gasket.
 

John_S

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Re: Low vacuum reading

I took a quick look at Holley and Edelbrocks installation manuals for vortec alum manifolds, and they do not call for sealer. See an excerpt below:


3) Install the intake gaskets to the cylinder head intake flanges. Two dowels on the intake manifold gasket will locate into dowel holes in the cylinder head. Do not use any type of gasket sealer on the intake gaskets. The O-rings are designed to seal without chemical sealers.
 

FreeBeeTony

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Re: Low vacuum reading

I know these intakes do not require alot of torque..........think it was only 10-12lbs if I remember correctly. Is it possible you overtightened to intake manifold bolts?

I agree, if it's steady it might be OK...........don't take my numbers as gospel..........:)

Good luck..........

Check this out..........http://www.earlycuda.org/tech/vacuum2.htm
 

John_S

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Re: Low vacuum reading

Tony,

I don't have the spec in front of me, but that sounds close. I know it was considerably lower than a standard intake. Also did it in three increasing passes.

From the reading on vacuum gauge diagnostics, it seems unlikely it is an intake manifold to cylinder leak, unless all eight runners are leaking. If the vac gauge was erratic, that would make more sense. This, along with redoing the lifter adjustment, was just to cover the relative easy bases.

I still think the carb/lean is the key. I also have a standard carb base gasket I could try.
 

FreeBeeTony

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Re: Low vacuum reading

How about the connection of the fitting in the manifold? And the hose....?

Have you taken it out on the water yet?

I also added a link on my previous post for you in case you didn't have someting like that...........there is a better site but I can't find it!
 

RCSConstruction

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Re: Low vacuum reading

I still think the carb/lean is the key. I also have a standard carb base gasket I could try.


Maybe someone will correct me, this is just a thought. But the bigger spacer would add more volume to the intake charge, kinda like a high-rise manifold, therefore lowering vacuum?????
Again, I am reaching here...:cool:
I am off for a father's day boating/camping trip, hope you work it out.
Have a great weekend!
 

Haut Medoc

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Re: Low vacuum reading


I'd like to see the #'s from the compression test......:)
 

John_S

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Re: Low vacuum reading

Well, I couldn't get much done with this on my mind, and took 1/2 day vacation. Stopped by a NAPA store, but they didn't know what size for the carb idle mixture screws. I ended up taking a magnifing glass and flashlight to look inside the recess. The idle mixture screws are a flatened oval shape. Putting one of the carb adj tool sockets in the vise, quickly made something to fit. The initial setting from I5 was only about 1/4 turn out. Moving them to an initial 2.5 turns out, made a significant difference. I now have a solid 17" HG at 600rpms. Also, closing the choke doesn't cause an increase in rpms anymore. Just dies when closed too far. I still have to go through an do the a couple of cycles of idle mixture, idle speed adjustments, but I am feeling much better! :)
 

Haut Medoc

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Re: Low vacuum reading


I thought that the Rochester idle screw adjustment tool was one size fits all....
Glad you are seeing better results......:)
 

Reel Poor

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Re: Low vacuum reading

It sounds like your ready for a test splash. Be sure to check total advance also.

The way I was taught to read a plug correctly is to run it hard and shut off as quickly (safely) as possible. Do not let it idle.

That's not true. Different areas of the plug tell the story of fuel burn at different throttle settings (idle, midrange, wot). And without dissecting the plug you really have a hard time determining fuel burn mixture at WOT because it is read at the base of the porcelain deep within the plug. Timing (initial and total advance) can also be determined by looking at the plugs.
 

Coors

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Re: Low vacuum reading

OK, Reel; you need to expand , and teach us.
In drag racing, you kill the engine right after pulling out of gear at the finish line, then read plugs.
What are we doing wrong? Are boats different?
 

FreeBeeTony

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Re: Low vacuum reading

I wanna hear how John makes out on his splash test...........
 

John_S

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Re: Low vacuum reading

I'll be posting back Sunday evening. Happy to be splashing it.
 
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