Mercury 25hp - How do I tell whether it is a 2-stroke or 4-stroke?

RaScLeS

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Re: Mercury 25hp - How do I tell whether it is a 2-stroke or 4-stroke?

that is insane...NO OIL lmao i hope it works ok still
 

Adder

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Re: Mercury 25hp - How do I tell whether it is a 2-stroke or 4-stroke?

that is insane...NO OIL lmao i hope it works ok still
Yeah it is insane. The guy that sold me this is not going to enjoy his return from vacation next week... I'm gonna be up one side of him and down the other. Thank goodness nearly every trip was no more then two minutes with a long interval before I returned to shore. There was only one long trip and that was the last one that I explained in my post. I guess I'll know the extent of damage, if any, within the next two days (keeping my fingers and toes crossed and praying like a saint :D).
 

PS94

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Re: Mercury 25hp - How do I tell whether it is a 2-stroke or 4-stroke?

You may have shortened her life, but I would worry too much about it....I had an old oil injected bike back in the day, and melted the oil line shut....that poor machine would heat seize, then I'd kick it down a gear or two, and it would un seize, and it'd run for 5-10 more mins....and do it again.....then run great after an hour or so....being 14, I didn't think too much about it....I mean, it had oil in the tank! lol. After about a dozen of these trips, I found the melted line, and replaced and rerouted it....It ran strong for years, and my friends nephew is STILL riding it....
 

lncoop

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Re: Mercury 25hp - How do I tell whether it is a 2-stroke or 4-stroke?

Holy Schneikes what a thread! We're all pulling for you. Good luck!
 

RicMic

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Re: Mercury 25hp - How do I tell whether it is a 2-stroke or 4-stroke?

On engines that use premix, whatever ratio they call for is the max that is needed, if for instance you are just trolling all day, you don't need as much oil,(hence extra smoke), but there is no way to control the ratio. In fact I don't know if it still does, but some of the manuals used to call for using double oil, if you didn't have the specific 50:1 two stroke o/b oil.
 

will941s

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Re: Mercury 25hp - How do I tell whether it is a 2-stroke or 4-stroke?

This is a great post....the guy that sold the motor to you, WOW! I can't even begin to think what I would say to him. You did get a GREAT motor though, provided it's ok. Runs faster than any Johnnyrude, Yamaha, Nissan ever will. Idles a bit rough, may kick and spit sitting there but MAN the top end and acceleration that thing has, and a short shaft at that. My 89' short shaft will beat the 98' long shaft that I have in the pic on my earlier post. I was looking at the pic of the front of the motor, at the filter sight bowl by the pull cord, and with oil it should be blue gray looking. Make sure you unscrew that bowl and dump the gas out, and purge the line so you can start fresh with new oil/gas mix. Please post the compression test results and outcome of the motor, and i'm sure people following this will love to hear what you tell the guy who sold it to you. Keep us posted.
 

Adder

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Re: Mercury 25hp - How do I tell whether it is a 2-stroke or 4-stroke?

You may have shortened her life, but I would worry too much about it....I had an old oil injected bike back in the day, and melted the oil line shut....that poor machine would heat seize, then I'd kick it down a gear or two, and it would un seize, and it'd run for 5-10 more mins....and do it again.....then run great after an hour or so....being 14, I didn't think too much about it....I mean, it had oil in the tank! lol. After about a dozen of these trips, I found the melted line, and replaced and rerouted it....It ran strong for years, and my friends nephew is STILL riding it....
That's crazy PS94! At 14, if it runs at all, then there's nothing wrong. lol And it's still running! Unbelievable!
Holy Schneikes what a thread! We're all pulling for you. Good luck!
Thanks lncoop. I'll take all the GOOD luck I can get right now since my luck has been so crappy lately.
On engines that use premix, whatever ratio they call for is the max that is needed, if for instance you are just trolling all day, you don't need as much oil,(hence extra smoke), but there is no way to control the ratio. In fact I don't know if it still does, but some of the manuals used to call for using double oil, if you didn't have the specific 50:1 two stroke o/b oil.
That makes sense RicMic, but I'm curious about that last statement. By specific 50:1 two stroke o/b oil do you mean a specific brand/type or specifications?
This is a great post....the guy that sold the motor to you, WOW! I can't even begin to think what I would say to him. You did get a GREAT motor though, provided it's ok. Runs faster than any Johnnyrude, Yamaha, Nissan ever will. Idles a bit rough, may kick and spit sitting there but MAN the top end and acceleration that thing has, and a short shaft at that. My 89' short shaft will beat the 98' long shaft that I have in the pic on my earlier post. I was looking at the pic of the front of the motor, at the filter sight bowl by the pull cord, and with oil it should be blue gray looking. Make sure you unscrew that bowl and dump the gas out, and purge the line so you can start fresh with new oil/gas mix. Please post the compression test results and outcome of the motor, and i'm sure people following this will love to hear what you tell the guy who sold it to you. Keep us posted.
Yep, I know it's a fast little beast. The first time that I opened it up, it surprised the crap out of me at how fast it took off. And then I tried a small direction adjustment and had to back off a bit. The mechanic had set the auto-pilot lever all the way to the left (tight) so when I moved the tiller I over-compensated and it felt like it could flip very easily. :eek: Needless to say, I adjusted that to about three-quarters and it handles much better.

I did dump the site bowl as well as putting oil into the cylinders and carb and added enough oil to the three gallons of gas that was still in the tank so that I have about a 30:1 - 35:1 mix. It'll smoke a bit I'm sure, and won't be as peppy until I get it back to the 50:1, but I figure it'll be worth it getting everything oiled up again. I'll run a compression check tomorrow if I can find my buddy who has my compression tester. He isn't answering his phones and hasn't returned my calls yet. :(

As soon as I get the compression results, I'll post it. And when the guy gets back next week, I will definitely let you all know what transpires. ;)
 

RicMic

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Re: Mercury 25hp - How do I tell whether it is a 2-stroke or 4-stroke?

They mean if you HAVE to use a regular automotive type oil instead of a 50-1 outboard oil.
 

Silvertip

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Re: Mercury 25hp - How do I tell whether it is a 2-stroke or 4-stroke?

I hope you are bigger than he is because YOU bought the engine not having a clue what you were buying. This then forces the seller into being a "mind reader" having to remember to tell you everything you don't know about engines. Come on -- educate yourself before you set out to buy stuff. I once got behind dude at Home Depot checkout who had a brand new LawnBoy mower and one quart of 10W30 motor oil in the cart. Knowing what the answer would be I asked him if the oil was for the mower. His answer was yup. I asked him if he knew what the difference was between a two stroke and a four stroke. Nope was the answer. Not even after that did he give any thought to this purchase. I relented and told him he had the wrong oil, needed two stroke oil and that it was not added to the engine since LawnBoys are two strokes and oil is mixed with the fuel. Oh he said and went back on got the correct oil. Had I not quizzed this quy he would have destroyed the engine as he sure as heck wouldn't read the manual until after the fact and then returned it for another only to destroy that one and then grumble because LawnBoys are a POS. I'm not aware of any Merc engine that is a four-stroke that doesn't say four stroke on the cover. If you look at the engine tune-up tag under the cowl you will likely find a dip stick and oil fill cap and some will even have the oil type on the cap. Two strokes simply don't have that stuff and they also have camshafts that occupy the area around the spark plugs. The pictures in this thread show the very typical two stroke head. Flat as a pancake with a plug in the middle. Unmistakeable two-stroke.
 

Adder

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Re: Mercury 25hp - How do I tell whether it is a 2-stroke or 4-stroke?

They mean if you HAVE to use a regular automotive type oil instead of a 50-1 outboard oil.
Ah. I kinda thought that's what you meant but I just wanted to be sure. I've made enough mistakes here lately taking things for granted. :redface: Thanks.
I hope you are bigger than he is because YOU bought the engine not having a clue what you were buying. This then forces the seller into being a "mind reader" having to remember to tell you everything you don't know about engines. Come on -- educate yourself before you set out to buy stuff. I once got behind dude at Home Depot checkout who had a brand new LawnBoy mower and one quart of 10W30 motor oil in the cart. Knowing what the answer would be I asked him if the oil was for the mower. His answer was yup. I asked him if he knew what the difference was between a two stroke and a four stroke. Nope was the answer. Not even after that did he give any thought to this purchase. I relented and told him he had the wrong oil, needed two stroke oil and that it was not added to the engine since LawnBoys are two strokes and oil is mixed with the fuel. Oh he said and went back on got the correct oil. Had I not quizzed this quy he would have destroyed the engine as he sure as heck wouldn't read the manual until after the fact and then returned it for another only to destroy that one and then grumble because LawnBoys are a POS. I'm not aware of any Merc engine that is a four-stroke that doesn't say four stroke on the cover. If you look at the engine tune-up tag under the cowl you will likely find a dip stick and oil fill cap and some will even have the oil type on the cap. Two strokes simply don't have that stuff and they also have camshafts that occupy the area around the spark plugs. The pictures in this thread show the very typical two stroke head. Flat as a pancake with a plug in the middle. Unmistakeable two-stroke.
Silvertip, I am in fact bigger than him at 6'4" and around 200 pounds (and in pretty good shape for my age), but I'm not planning on getting physical with him. I only fight when there is no alternative. But I AM planning on confronting him on the misinformation and if he denies it, I will give him a piece of my mind in no uncertain terms. The guy is a salesman at that marina and has been for years. Now maybe he was misinformed by his friend and never actually laid-eyes on the motor, or maybe he had something else on his mind and simply said the wrong thing while preoccupied. Honestly, I don't believe it was intentional but the fact remains that he stated to me that it was a 4-stroke and I had no reason to doubt him. Let me explain...

He knew that I hadn't been boating in years because I told him, right up front, that it had been over thirty years since I'd been on the river. He also recognized my name because my Dad and Grandfather (both are gone now) had owned those two islands since 1949, we all have the same name - Sr., Jr., and I'm the III, and the islands are known by our last name. When I introduced myself he was suddenly a long-lost friend. He even took me to the island that same afternoon so that I could check out the rumors that the place had been broken into and vandalized and was being used by kids as a party spot (all true - the interior of the cabin was all but destroyed and every window had been busted-out so the weather and critters finished the job) and then he loaned me his boat the next day to go over and post the islands. As I said, I had no reason to doubt him.

Then, being very uncharacteristic for me (I almost always take things apart to acquaint myself with them and to see what makes 'em tick - my first computer in '89, a Commodore 64, was in pieces on my desk less than half-an-hour after my buddy gave it to me and was back together just as fast :D), I didn't bother looking under the cowl because I had a LOT to get done and a lot on my mind and his mechanic had given the engine a clean bill of health, nor was I aware that all 4-stroke engines indicated such on the cowl - as I stated in an earlier post, when I was boating years ago, there WERE no 4-stroke engines. Besides, if you go buy a new car and the salesman tells you that it has airbags, do you go home and take it apart to make sure it does?
 

milehighboater

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Re: Mercury 25hp - How do I tell whether it is a 2-stroke or 4-stroke?

Just a note with the oil, the motor takes a TCW3 oil, not just any two stroke. Get a decent oil like quicksilver or valvoline tcw3. I would stick with the 50:1, this motor is not being broken in and the more oil you put in the gas the leaner the mixture becomes. Lean motors melt cylinders...
Get the motor running and post back about the "lack of thrust" while over reving. I'm a bit confused about that one seeing they are direct drive motors, no clutch or torque converters. If it is in gear, the prop will spin at the same speed as the RPMs are... given the 1:2 gear ratio or whichever it is.
 

Adder

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Re: Mercury 25hp - How do I tell whether it is a 2-stroke or 4-stroke?

Just a note with the oil, the motor takes a TCW3 oil, not just any two stroke. Get a decent oil like quicksilver or valvoline tcw3. I would stick with the 50:1, this motor is not being broken in and the more oil you put in the gas the leaner the mixture becomes. Lean motors melt cylinders...
Get the motor running and post back about the "lack of thrust" while over reving. I'm a bit confused about that one seeing they are direct drive motors, no clutch or torque converters. If it is in gear, the prop will spin at the same speed as the RPMs are... given the 1:2 gear ratio or whichever it is.
Thanks for the info milehighboater. I did buy the best that the marina had - Conoco XHP - and it is a tcw3 oil. I am planning on getting the mix back to the 50:1 ratio after a trip over to the cabin and back which is only a run time of about 1 1/2 to 2 minutes one way. I figured just one trip should be enough to make sure everything has a good coating of oil again. That's why I added the oil (about 12 oz.) to just 3 gallons of gas giving me about 30:1 or 35:1. I bought another 3 gallons in a seperate container so that I can top it off and adjust the mixture with another 4 oz giving me the 50:1.

As for the over revving and lack of thrust, I was a bit confused about that too. I figured I'd get it running again with oil and see if the problem was still present. I'll post results as soon as I take it out again which won't be until tomorrow. My buddy who borrowed my compression gauge finally returned my calls last night but his son has the gauge. He is going to pick it up tonight so I can run the test on it tomorrow. If it turns out OK, I'll make a quick trip over to the cabin and post results when I get back.
 

will941s

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Re: Mercury 25hp - How do I tell whether it is a 2-stroke or 4-stroke?

I agree with you on this one, being that selling boats is this guys job....it seems like telling you it was a 2-stroke should've been really important. If I did'nt know any better and some guy on the street told me that I would have to check, but if I were at a Marina and it was sold to me by the staff, well I would be a little more trustworthy. It's not like being told the prop was stainless and finding out it's actually aluminum, this is something that could destroy that motor in a instant; and a really big lie or mishap on his part to a customer. And this could really come back to the company, esp selling it to someone who may be somewhat well known in the community. Whether he slipped when saying it, or wanted you come and buy another motor and blame the failed motor on something unrelated who knows, but at least I would visit that guy in person and ask him again if he sold you a 2 or 4-stroke and inform of the potentially fatal mistake on the motor.
 

will941s

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Re: Mercury 25hp - How do I tell whether it is a 2-stroke or 4-stroke?

The lack of thrust and the high RPM's could be caused by the prop slipping. There is a rubber bushing in the hub that can break loose when it hits something. Easiest way to check that is to draw a line across the prop hub, run it and check the line to see if the line on the hub is in a different location than the rest of the prop surrounding the hub. If it is then get a new prop or have the hub in that one repacked.
 

Adder

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Re: Mercury 25hp - How do I tell whether it is a 2-stroke or 4-stroke?

will941s, thanks for the support and the info. I'll do that line test. I thought I had read someplace about a plastic bushing but that may have been a different engine. If it is the rubber bushing though, I'm still puzzled as to what could have caused it, unless it was ready to go when I bought it (the prop does show obvious signs of wear), because I haven't hit anything... yet. ;)

Again, I'll post the results after all of the testing tomorrow.
 

Jacket4life

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Re: Mercury 25hp - How do I tell whether it is a 2-stroke or 4-stroke?

Just a note with the oil, the motor takes a TCW3 oil, not just any two stroke. Get a decent oil like quicksilver or valvoline tcw3. I would stick with the 50:1, this motor is not being broken in and the more oil you put in the gas the leaner the mixture becomes. Lean motors melt cylinders...
Get the motor running and post back about the "lack of thrust" while over reving. I'm a bit confused about that one seeing they are direct drive motors, no clutch or torque converters. If it is in gear, the prop will spin at the same speed as the RPMs are... given the 1:2 gear ratio or whichever it is.

Ummmm, this isn't true. "Lean" condition comes from not enough fuel being made available by the carb during cycle. Too much oil will really only affect the plugs, causing them to foul more often.

"Lean motors melt cylinders", well, they do melt pistons, so I have to basically agree with you here...
 

milehighboater

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Re: Mercury 25hp - How do I tell whether it is a 2-stroke or 4-stroke?

You can lean out a motor with using too much oil in the mix... I think. Here is my rational. The carbs are only going to pull in a set amount of a premixed liquid; the more oil in the mix the less gasoline there will be. Therefore not allowing enough fuel into the cylinders and leaning out the mixture and raising the combustion temperature. Because the oil does not burn nearly as efficiently as the gas it will not consume the O2 in the cylinder like the gas would... therefore again raising the oxygen to fuel ratio and making the mixture lean. Granted engine damage is probably only going to be caused by either extremely heavy mixtures or prolonged running at a high ratio but either way the final situation is a high combustion temperature, increased carbon build-up, and eventually failure of the piston or rings aka a lean running condition.

But I will stand corrected, lean conditions do melt the pistons not the cylinders.
 

Jacket4life

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Re: Mercury 25hp - How do I tell whether it is a 2-stroke or 4-stroke?

You can lean out a motor with using too much oil in the mix... I think. Here is my rational. The carbs are only going to pull in a set amount of a premixed liquid; the more oil in the mix the less gasoline there will be. Therefore not allowing enough fuel into the cylinders and leaning out the mixture and raising the combustion temperature. Because the oil does not burn nearly as efficiently as the gas it will not consume the O2 in the cylinder like the gas would... therefore again raising the oxygen to fuel ratio and making the mixture lean. Granted engine damage is probably only going to be caused by either extremely heavy mixtures or prolonged running at a high ratio but either way the final situation is a high combustion temperature, increased carbon build-up, and eventually failure of the piston or rings aka a lean running condition.

But I will stand corrected, lean conditions do melt the pistons not the cylinders.

These two things seem mutually exclusive to me.

Fire requires three things to burn: Oxygen, fuel, and a source of ignition. Just becuse the fuel source is inferior, does not mean that the oxygen available will not be consumed. I understand your argument, I just believe you are incorrect. Obviously, I have not researched to find a source to prove that, I, like you am just going off of my (limited, of course!) experience and education on the subject. I see where you are going with it, but keep in mind that we are not talking about an unlimited space here, and, if anything, the oil, being more dense than gasoline, may actually be reducing the amount of available oxygen in the detonation area at the time of spark. What I'm trying to say is, yes, there is les gasoline present, but it was replaced by oil, so why would there be any more oxygen available?

When you buy a new two stroke engine or have one rebuilt, the engineers and mechanics that design and build them advocate this during the break-in process (doubling oil ratio, that is). Hard for me to beleive that is incorrect procedure given the # of times I have been told to do it.

Not to mention, the oil is what acts as the lubricant. That means that the failure to burn off ALL the oil upon detonation is going to leave oil behind, and it is stilll going to act as a lubricant.

I will certainly agree that over time, carbon build up is going to be a problem, but it is a problem that manifests itself in these types of engines anyway. You would just be speeding up the processs.

Keep in mind that I am not advocating this as a long term fix, but if I had an older motor and I suspected or knew about slight piston/cylinder damage (as is probably the case in this guys situation) I would most certainly do it for a short period of time hoping it helped remedy my situation.
 

RicMic

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Re: Mercury 25hp - How do I tell whether it is a 2-stroke or 4-stroke?

I think, if you are worried about ruining an engine, by running to much oil, you really don't have enough things to worry about.
 

Adder

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Re: Mercury 25hp - How do I tell whether it is a 2-stroke or 4-stroke?

Interesting discussion there guys. My best friend is a retired master mechanic with over thirty years experience and is one of the best I've ever seen. I'll have to ask him about that when I see him tomorrow.

Anyway, the results are in. Yesterday late afternoon, I finally ran the compression test... the top cylinder was reading just shy of 75 psi and the lower was reading just over 60 psi. Needless to say, I was spitting nails.:mad: My mechanic buddy was with me and he suggested that I run another check after running it for awhile and letting it go cold again.

We then headed down river about a mile to pick up a dock I had bought from a guy the day the engine had quit on me. I was running a mixture of about 30:1 to 35:1. The trip back to my cabin with the dock (which had barrel floats instead of pontoons) was a bear to put it mildly and took nearly forty-five minutes to travel that mile against the current at low throttle, but we did make it (and celebrated with a few brews when we got home :)).

I went back this morning and ran another compression check. The results kinda surprised me - top cylinder improved a bit to just shy of 80 psi and the bottom jumped to just over 75 psi. Still not good, but a helluva lot better than the day before. Apparently there had been some scoring of the cylinders and the trip down and back with the dock had evened them out somewhat.

I then added three gallons of gas to what was left and added another 8 oz of oil which should have me at about 40:1 or a little better. I'm going to run it at that mixture (with spare plugs in the boat) for the foreseeable future until my buddy and I can do an overhaul with the help of the manuals that I have ordered.

As for the revving and loss of thrust, I did the line test but the symptom never reappeared. I even opened it up full-throttle on my way back this evening and it ran fine. Now I'm really stumped about that.

I'm still planning on having a talk with the salesman this coming week, so I'll post the results of that little discussion after it happens.
 
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