Navionics . . . I'd look elsewhere . . .

[Expidia]

Bottom line from my recent experience is their Despicable customer service s*ucks!

I'd shop elsewhere for an electronic map for your GPS if you can rather than try and deal with their reps. I will in the future.

I went with the Hummingbird 797 C2 side imaging GPS/Fishfinding system last month for $999. Very happy with the unit and Humminbird bends over backwards to support you. Navionic's attitude is "you" bend over and assume the position for them!

From what my research found is that these various GPS/Fishfinder units are all pretty much all the same when you are spending $500 to $1000 and up.

So I went with the Hummingbird because they have a unique mount / dismount system that allows the head unit to just plug in without any wires to attach each time. Since my boat is an open one which I trailer, I liked that feature to protect my $1000 investment.

But what I didn't know is now I was stuck buying from Navionics for a mapping chip. I know I can create them myself with software and down load them to an SD card, but I'm not into that. I used to do that with my Garmin handheld and it's a pain using disks and a laptop each time you change regions. I just wanted to pop in a card that covers most of the lakes I use and be good to go. I'm not into using map create either.

So I spent $200 on the Platinum Hotmaps card and then only to find out that this chip does not work with my unit. So the marina dealer was nice enough to swap it for the Gold card (same price) that the Navionics rep I spoke to said "this is the one I need". She told me it's better than the Premium card, because the Premium card is mostly for fishing. That this one is better for navigating. This may be true, but I found it would not even locate two major ports when I was a mile away. Or most NY state boat launches. Places for gas etc. Very sparse on structure too even with the "enhanced map version of the lakes I used it on.

This Gold card covers the entire East Coast and is more designed for the marine coastal navigation boater. It has very little depth contours, which I told her was very important to me because the rivers and lakes I boat on can get shallow, real fast and take out my lower unit. So she clearly recommended the wrong version for my needs.

Now I call them back and say I'm not going back yet again to my marina and ask them to exchange the card yet again as they had to order it each time. They didn't even charge me for overnight shipping each time.

I asked the rep since I already paid $199 could they just swap it for the Premium card (which is only $149 anyway) and it was your rep that steered me wrong in the first place. This guy "Scott Costas" the Navionics rep was pretty obnoxious to talk with. After about 20 minutes of arguing with him that his rep recommended the wrong version for my needs, he finally said he would run it by his manager. Several days later and still no response back from him. Finally 5 days later I leave him a voice mail to just forget it. That I'm going to sell this chip on Ebay and I wish I never got involved with their extremely overpriced product in the first place. Next day he called and I cut him off quickly and said you're too late and I don't care what his "manager" decided now.

Here is the way to beat these JERKS! Never pay retail for one of their ripoff chips. A search on google turned up Cabelas selling the 2006 version for $59.
I've demoed them both in the stores 2006/2007 and there is very little difference for the $199 2007 version. I doubt islands and buoys move around that much from year to year anyway.

My biggest beef is "no one" knows much about their products. Not their own reps I spoke to or the West Marine salesman or the Bass Pro salesman.

This tells me Navionics does a real poor job of training their vendors on their product lines yet they want you to shell out $200 for an electronic map on a $5.00 SD card.

If you are in the market for GPS that uses an electronic map, I would look to Garmin or Lowrance or whichever company does not use Navionics.

I'll probably sell the Gold version on Ebay and also sell the free Fish and Chips card that is a promo item that comes with the Gold version that they claim is a $199 value. I'll dump this one on Ebay too, so I'll come out of a bad experience with more than I paid for the Gold version. I'll continue to use the 2006 Premium Hotmaps chip that I just ordered for $59. This chip will show me the depth contours I need when I'm in unknown areas.

Just my two cents because I see threads started from time to time here asking about these GPS mapping chips . . . avoid Navionics and their p*ss poor, unknowledgable no care customer service and bad attitude along with their "price controlled" overpriced cards.

 

[Expidia]

Re: Navionics . . . I'd look elsewhere . . .

Update as of today . . . This is bad, really bad. Navionics has a disclaimer on the SD card package that you should use their product as an aid to navigation. And to use Government charts for navigation. Gee, then why did I just spend $1000 on a GPS system and another $200 to Navionics if they recommend I use a paper map???

This is a total joke. I can understand if one buys their Hotmaps chart for fishing. One does not expect it to be that accurate. But the one they sold me (Gold version) I was assured that this is the one for navigation where the other versions are for fishing use.

Tell me what you think of these shots taken today. The yellow is the land. This crummy chart not only shows my boat riding on the land it put the red buoy on the wrong side of the boat. Another pic shows my boat going over an Island. Also noticefor $200 the lack of depth contours. Pretty useless IMO.

The Cabelas Premium card that I just ordered is going back as soon as it arrives. This company should be closed down. Someone is going to die using their products in a GPS unit.

 

[dingbat]

Re: Navionics . . . I'd look elsewhere . . .

What is the chart datum for the chart and what chart datum is your unit set for?

BTW: The only charts certified for navigation are the government issued paper charts as you've been advised. Electronic charts are for reference only.

 

[eurolarva]

Re: Navionics . . . I'd look elsewhere . . .

I bought the 2006 hotmaps from Navonics last year and I really love it. I use it in my H20. Some of the lake maps are very detailed where some are not as detailed. Lake Mille Lacs has a super accurate map that I have found Bouys in the middle of the night by GPS alone. Navonics in my area had 8000 maps where Lakemaster only had a few hundred for the same price. Lakemaster will allow you to go to a lot closer detail then Navonics under 1/8 mile. A lot of the maps in the chip were old surveyers maps that could be as old as 1940 where some of the maps were done using modern mapping equipment which is very accurate. I am no expert on the setup however I remember reading in a fishing minnesota forum that if the unit is not set up correctly using the corret datum it can put you off target. From your experience with Navonics I am glad I have not had to deal with them however I have had very good luck with the Hotmaps chip.

 

[Tcrum5711]

Re: Navionics . . . I'd look elsewhere . . .

I've been really happy with the 2 chips I've bought from Navionics. Check the position error on your unit. I've been up on "shore" on my Lowrance many times due to this and not the chip. Even on a sunny day it can be off by a number of feet.

 

[tommays]

Re: Navionics . . . I'd look elsewhere . . .

All the data on EVERYBODYS chips is from the GOVERMENT IE "CG" surveys


The CG is currently working on getting funds to upgrade the survey ships so they can bring things back up to date


As many places are 10 to 40 years OUT OF DATE even on paper OTHER THAN reading every "Notice to Mariners"(updated weekly and is available for download) and updateing your charts buy hand it is what it is




Tommays

 

[Expidia]

Re: Navionics . . . I'd look elsewhere . . .

What is the chart datum for the chart and what chart datum is your unit set for?

BTW: The only charts certified for navigation are the government issued paper charts as you've been advised. Electronic charts are for reference only.

Datum on this unit is not available. Manual says data is automatic when you plug in card.

Electronic charts are for reference only. Come on now. Do you think anyone buys these cards for a reference that is way off. If they are not at least somewhat accurate why woud anyone spend $200 for these maps. What are we referencing? Do we buy these to look at the pretty colors on the screen? Their maps should align with my unit if they take my money and say they will work with my specific unit.
And their reps should know which version fits my needs best after I tell them what I'm looking for.

Humminbird claims the GPS location signal can be plus or minus 10 meters. I can live with that. But the Navionics map is off by it's own 50 yards at times

 

[Expidia]

Re: Navionics . . . I'd look elsewhere . . .

I've been really happy with the 2 chips I've bought from Navionics. Check the position error on your unit. I've been up on "shore" on my Lowrance many times due to this and not the chip. Even on a sunny day it can be off by a number of feet.

The GPS is accurate. It's they map that lays benneath it that is not accurate. There is no position error adjust on this unit. It's automatically corrected by the 797.

 

[Expidia]

Re: Navionics . . . I'd look elsewhere . . .

I've been really happy with the 2 chips I've bought from Navionics. Check the position error on your unit. I've been up on "shore" on my Lowrance many times due to this and not the chip. Even on a sunny day it can be off by a number of feet.

The GPS is accurate. It's they map that lays beneath it that is not accurate. There is no position error adjust on this unit. It's automatically corrected by the 797.

 

[Expidia]

Re: Navionics . . . I'd look elsewhere . . .

I bought the 2006 hotmaps from Navonics last year and I really love it. I use it in my H20. Some of the lake maps are very detailed where some are not as detailed. Lake Mille Lacs has a super accurate map that I have found Bouys in the middle of the night by GPS alone. Navonics in my area had 8000 maps where Lakemaster only had a few hundred for the same price. Lakemaster will allow you to go to a lot closer detail then Navonics under 1/8 mile. A lot of the maps in the chip were old surveyers maps that could be as old as 1940 where some of the maps were done using modern mapping equipment which is very accurate. I am no expert on the setup however I remember reading in a fishing minnesota forum that if the unit is not set up correctly using the corret datum it can put you off target. From your experience with Navonics I am glad I have not had to deal with them however I have had very good luck with the Hotmaps chip.

Thx for your comments. As I struggle using these cards I keep wondering . . . instead of putting 10,000 lakes on one card and charging us $200. Why not just give us fewer lakes and make them a lot more accurate then their advertising touts.

 

[Expidia]

Re: Navionics . . . I'd look elsewhere . . .

I thought of checking Humminbirds site for a software update. They did have one. The only way to see it was to register. I copied upgrade to a blank SD card plugged it in the the unit and it updated the heads software to the most current version.

I still think this upgrade won't matter. When I've pulled the Navionics card while under way I have always found the units built in base map to be very accurate.

This tells me it's a Navionics issue. In comparing the two cards in the unit tonight I found that the Hotmaps 2006 $59 card that came today from Cabela's.com has more detail on it. So don't waste your money on the $199 version if you must go with a Navionics card.

As to the accuracy of this 2006 card, I won't know until I'm on the water tomorrow.

If I see my boat riding on the land again tomorrow, everything will be dumped on Ebay, including the Humminbird unit 797 c2 SI because Humminbird should have been aware of the quality of the mapping software they are recommending for their units. And how inaccurate the Navionics cards are with this particular model.

I'll just shop for another brand that uses another map company.

If I lose a few hundred on the swap it's cheaper than a lower unit or my Family's safety.

Nothing wrong with carrying a paper back up map on board of the area you're boating in. But to spend about $1350 so far on hardware and software and see your boat riding on the land 50 yards to your starboard side and having buoys passing you on the wrong side of the boat is a total joke on the consumer.

 

[Kymasabe]

Re: Navionics . . . I'd look elsewhere . . .

That's why I didn't buy a Humminbird. I wanted one...really really wanted one but didn't like having to do the "card" thing. I bought a Garmin instead and it came preloaded with depth contour and soundings. Worth every penny.

 

[tommays]

Re: Navionics . . . I'd look elsewhere . . .

Ex

Bouys get MOVED all the time as channels get dreged or shoal that is why they do the Notice to Mariners thing and make it easy to get them


As i said it seems you have and issue BUT The data used to make the charts and chips is very out of date


You SHOULD be able to plot the location of that bouy from a paper chart and see were the unit places you when your in the LAT/ LON position

There could be a problem with YOUR unit ?


Tommays

 

[Expidia]

Re: Navionics . . . I'd look elsewhere . . .

That's why I didn't buy a Humminbird. I wanted one...really really wanted one but didn't like having to do the "card" thing. I bought a Garmin instead and it came preloaded with depth contour and soundings. Worth every penny.

This Hummingbird is also available with pre-loaded maps of the premium hotmaps and the Marine gold charts for $200 more.

Big deal cause those are the same in accurate maps.

The only reason I went with Humminbird was for it's quick release with no wires involved. I was only looking to spend $500-600 but I the dealer had the $999 version in stock and I had it in my hand. Didn't want to wait a few weeks for a possibly backordered unit at the start of the boating season so I took it.

Big mistake, in hindsight I should have went with Garmin too. They have a one knob release system that I could have gotten by with at the time.

All I expected was a system that would show my craft in reasonably accurate position. I know the GPS on it's own has a +/- of 10 meters to start. So to add a possible 30-50 foot error on top of that is unacceptable. I know paper maps are more accurate. But in this day and age a GPS unit used in conjuction from a decent mapping company should be more accurate than these Navionics cards are. It doesn't matter if they are using old surveys because obstructions like Islands, large rocks land (other than an eroding edge) etc don't move. They have been in the same palce for a lot longer than 40 years. This is the way the retailers claim the work and are being miss sold due to poor training from the mapping companies.

Sandbars shift, canal entrances change and buoys move. Of course a more recent survey of depth contours would be great. But these updates for safety alone should be downloadable to your card by the company that sold you the card within a reasonable date of purchase. But when we get to that point Navionics will never do that. They will force you to buy a new card and offer you a $50 credit for your old card.

How far off these maps are is just awful when I see my boat running over the land on the screens above. This just shows me that using at least the version of Navionics brand cards is just an expensive gimmick.

Local fisherman can tell me where the fish are. My fishfinder can locate fish and mark where they are very accuratly. The GPS can bring me back to the exact same spot each time. But Navionics tells me in their disclaimer (so they don't get sued for inaccuracy) that this card should only be used as an aid to navigation and that's a load of crap. Because that's not why they sell these cards.

I should not have to worry about running aground into an island in the fog because their maps don't align properly with the GPS units they claim they do.

As soon as I pull out the inaccurate Navionics card the Humminbird becomes "balls on" accurate again as I'm just using the built in base map!

It's probably as you say. I should have went with Garmins more accurate built in base map from what you're telling me.

The GPS is very accurate. It's the inaccurate relationship of the Navionics maps to a particular unit they claim it's designed to woks with.

Lowrance had a nice screen, but I didn't want to take a chance on a company that recently changed hands. Have had bad experiences when that happens.

Didn't like the way they still have both brands going as Lowarance and Eagle with Eagle being on the lower end yet they have similar models just under two different names. Too many models out there now. They don't know who they are yet!!!

Found the screens on the higher priced units of all the various companies to be high resolution anyway Just my opinion when I researched out which unit to buy.

 

[dingbat]

Re: Navionics . . . I'd look elsewhere . . .

Datum on this unit is not available. Manual says data is automatic when you plug in card.

I've never seen a GPS that didn't allow you to change the map datum. I'd check to make sure just in case

From page 116 in your manual

Map Datum allows you to change the map coordinate system used by the
Fishing System to match those of a paper map. The Map Datum menu choice
is only available when User Mode is set to Advanced (see Setup Menu Tab:
User Mode).
To change the Map Datum setting:
1. Make sure you are in Advanced User Mode, then highlight Map Datum
on the Navigation main menu.
2. Use the LEFT or RIGHT 4-WAY Cursor Control keys to change the Map
Datum setting. (Default = WGS 84)

Electronic charts are for reference only. Come on now. Do you think anyone buys these cards for a reference that is way off. If they are not at least somewhat accurate why woud anyone spend $200 for these maps. What are we referencing?

The first rule of seamanship is to never rely on a sole means of navigation. I spent a lot more than $200 for my system and I’m very happy with results but……. I also understand that it's a tool, not gospel and I have to relay on other forms of information be it paper maps or local knowledge to safely navigate the waters.

Humminbird claims the GPS location signal can be plus or minus 30 meters. I can live with that. But the Navionics map is off by it's own 50 yards at times

If what you say is true, Hummingbird GPS isn't any too good. My system's advertised accuracy is roughly plus or minus 5 meters and in real life I'm generally under 3 meters.

 

[tommays]

Re: Navionics . . . I'd look elsewhere . . .

This is kind of funny

When i was younger about 26 years ago and Loran was king the biggest issue we had on the longer sailboat races (250 miles) was NOT Hiting Bouys at night or in Fog because we had pluged in the location to pass it to close



Tommays

 

[gonefishie]

Re: Navionics . . . I'd look elsewhere . . .

Well, I'm hoping that you know Hotmaps is made by Navionics. I don't know if you remember from the other post that you started. I recommended Lowrance because Navionics's products work best with Lowrance. You see, the map is not inaccurate. Everybody's maps are taken from U.S Geological Survey, with the exception of some are done with modern privately owned mapping equipment which would be your proprietary "high def" maps. So, they are all the same without a whole lots of details. The discrepancy is like you said, the inability of the two software to work well together. Don't give up on them, they might have sucky customer service but it's the best product out there.

 

[Expidia]

Re: Navionics . . . I'd look elsewhere . . .

Well, I'm hoping that you know Hotmaps is made by Navionics. I don't know if you remember from the other post that you started. I recommended Lowrance because Navionics's products work best with Lowrance. You see, the map is not inaccurate. Everybody's maps are taken from U.S Geological Survey, with the exception of some are done with modern privately owned mapping equipment which would be your proprietary "high def" maps. So, they are all the same without a whole lots of details. The discrepancy is like you said, the inability of the two software to work well together. Don't give up on them, they might have sucky customer service but it's the best product out there.

Ya I know Hotmaps is Navionics! It's the only other choice I have to use with this unit, so that's why I ordered the 2006 version. I was right. After using it today and also comparing them in the unit the Hotmaps version has more detail and more contours than the Gold version the rep recommended.

The problem I'm finding is that the Gold version is the entire East coast and only some of NY which is what I need. I don't need any coastal maps. I own an inland water type boat. It will never see salt water. The Gold is actually primarily a coastal marine chart, so there is not much detail on the lakes I've used it on so far, even though the rep said the lakes I use it on are the enhanced. ones. Yet the Hotmaps has more detail from what I see. Also appears more accurate so far because the Mohawk river in the pictures above is not an enhanced map so it almost useless and actually dangerous to try and navigate with. The Huminbird manual says the 797 is designed to work with only the Hotmaps Premium or the Gold Coastal. They should have never recommended the Gold version for my needs.

I know the maps are all the same. But I bet the same map aligns better on your Lowrance than they do on my Humminbird.

The fish and chips SD card came today from the promo when one purchases the Gold version. I'll see what's on this card!

Thx for your input!

 

[Expidia]

Re: Navionics . . . I'd look elsewhere . . .

I've never seen a GPS that didn't allow you to change the map datum. I'd check to make sure just in case

From page 116 in your manual

Map Datum allows you to change the map coordinate system used by the
Fishing System to match those of a paper map. The Map Datum menu choice
is only available when User Mode is set to Advanced (see Setup Menu Tab:
User Mode).
To change the Map Datum setting:
1. Make sure you are in Advanced User Mode, then highlight Map Datum
on the Navigation main menu.
2. Use the LEFT or RIGHT 4-WAY Cursor Control keys to change the Map
Datum setting. (Default = WGS 84)

Thanks for your comments here dingbat and for taking the time to look the info up in the manual.

I missed your post before, so I never got back to you.

For sure, I had a typo when I quoted inherent GPS error + / - 30 meters. You are correct it is - / + 10 meters and I knew that but I was trying to convert in my mind meters, feet yards etc to show how far my boat was off from the screen shots I took.

From what I saw while on the water in the pics above I was off at least 50 "feet". Which put an added apprx 20 feet of error over the stated possible GPS error.

Which I'm sure if this were happening to others I'm sure no one would be buying them.

But I'm still leery about changing the "GPS" positioning. I want to be change the "maps" positioning.

I still feel the problem is not the GPS, it's how the "map" aligns under the GPS's position of the boat cursor.

I was hoping for a way to correct the error by internal adjustments, but when you mentioned this before I checked each setting on the GPS's menu and did not see any adjustment tab. These menu settings are difficult to maneuver around in as I have to use the rocker control and different menu have submenus that it's easy to miss since you have to drill down in several of them. If the rocker is not pressed just right it tosses you into the next menu. Really tough to attempt when you're underway too.

Page 7 under muti media card quoted me " the 700 fishing system will retrieve the chart and display it automatically" so I thought that's it that's all, no position error adjustment. I didn't see it mentioned in the contents and I had already scrolled through each tab and never saw any way to re-position any mapping error. This is great that you found this.

I'll try and calibrate it next time I'm on the water using advanced settings. At least if I make things worse I can always reset it back to the default settings.

But as I said above I think if I change the GPS error I'm going the wrong way. If I pull the Navionics card the position if fine. This tells me the map needs to be adjusted not the GPS position. What tere needs to be is a change of "map" position tab.

I started this thread because of Navionics bad customer service from the two reps I experienced. The inaccurate maps I found after the fact was just adding insult to injury. Another poster had mentioned to stick it out with their customer service and get the unit working correctly. I never asked them about this because I did not know of the problem when I spoke to them on two occasions.

dingbat quote:
The first rule of seamanship is to never rely on a sole means of navigation. I spent a lot more than $200 for my system and I’m very happy with results but……. I also understand that it's a tool, not gospel and I have to relay on other forms of information be it paper maps or local knowledge to safely navigate the waters.

I had a fear of starting this thread expecting many posters finding it necessary to keep telling me how paper charts are far more accurate. I get it. I've already known it. But one would think in this day of GPS accuracy companies like Hummingbird and Navionics could allow their products to align better. Or if adjustments are going to be needed it they should have that disclaimer and instructions included with the initial set up instructions when you pop in the SD card.

Of course I can live with using this unit as a reference aid. I knew this when I bought it. I never thought of it as the absolute replcement to paper maps. Let's face it . . . I'm not trying to move a freighter through the Panama canal here. I'm only trying to avoid a cluster of submerged unmarked (on the water) cluster of rocks, sunken island etc. Especially if I get fogged in. I know enough to give these obstructions a wide berth. But how inaccurate do these Navionics maps have to be when they are supposed to be aligning under my Hummingbirds GPS's signal?
If I change the GPS actual positioning signal, I think I could make things a lot more dangerous.

 

[eurolarva]

Re: Navionics . . . I'd look elsewhere . . .

On the H20 one of the pages will tell you how many satellites you have and an EPE number. This EPE number is how accurate your GPS is with the current satellites you are using. I have seen numbers as bad as 350 and as good as 15 which is feet of accuracy. Seems I get better accuracy when I have WAAS. I cant always get this satilite and when I dont have it my accuracy goes way down.