Old Bayliner vs Newer Bayliner Express Cruiser quality ...

[spoilsofwar]

Re: Old Bayliner vs Newer Bayliner Express Cruiser quality ...

I looked at a Bayliner when shopping for my new boat, in my case I was looking for a small cuddy so I checked out the Discovery 192.

While it certainly looked like a nice boat from afar, the lack of interior detail and general "blandness" to it did not appeal to me. The biggest turn off was that almost every desireable feature was an option, not standard. The lack of a molded in swim platform, the fact that a 1/4 width swim platform/boarding ladder was standard (yes, they also have a tacked-on looking full width platform optionally available), and the old-school back-to-back & jump seating cockpit removed it from contention. The price was barely lower then the Stingray I ended up buying, which had almost everything I wanted standard in a better looking, more modern design.

All that being said, I think Bayliner's small cruisers are a good value and I am actually a big fan of their hard-top Discovery line (of which it looks like they only offer one anymore; the Discovery 266). I think the discontinued 246 was a great example of efficient use of space, and would be on my short list if I move up to a small cruiser in the near future.

 

[Hai Nhi]

Re: Old Bayliner vs Newer Bayliner Express Cruiser quality ...

You don't have to have the fanciest boat on the lake to have a good time.

Good point.

 

[Hai Nhi]

Re: Old Bayliner vs Newer Bayliner Express Cruiser quality ...

The one I was looking at was a 2004. First owner selling it. I thought it was a brand new replacement engine, but it turned out to be a total rebuilt because of salt water (so no closed loop cooling). Would that be a problem? They said just rebuilt recently with very low mile because the owner got sick/old. It looks pretty clean/almost-new to me. Some local mechanic (doesn't have his own shop) said rebuilt engine might not be good, but I don't understand why would that be (if it's true). The seller said they spent a fortune, close to $8,000. I'm not sure if it's true either, but of course we can check the receits.

So I made an offer on it, but not sure if they'll accept it. I should know by Monday/Tuesday.

Nhi

 

[tpenfield]

Re: Old Bayliner vs Newer Bayliner Express Cruiser quality ...

The one I was looking at was a 2004. First owner selling it. I thought it was a brand new replacement engine, but it turned out to be a total rebuilt because of salt water (so no closed loop cooling). Would that be a problem? They said just rebuilt recently with very low mile because the owner got sick/old. It looks pretty clean/almost-new to me. Some local mechanic (doesn't have his own shop) said rebuilt engine might not be good, but I don't understand why would that be (if it's true). The seller said they spent a fortune, close to $8,000. I'm not sure if it's true either, but of course we can check the receits.

So I made an offer on it, but not sure if they'll accept it. I should know by Monday/Tuesday.

Nhi

Yea, newly rebuilt engines may be as much a 'risk' as they are a 'plus'. It has not proven itself, yet . . . and may need to be used for 30 - 50 hours to do so.

Salt water use is a greater concern with a rebuild, as a lot of metal scales off the internal water passages of the engine. You could go to closed cooling and maybe hold off further scaling of the internals.

 

[Hai Nhi]

Re: Old Bayliner vs Newer Bayliner Express Cruiser quality ...

Salt water use is a greater concern with a rebuild, as a lot of metal scales off the internal water passages of the engine. You could go to closed cooling and maybe hold off further scaling of the internals.

Yeah that's what the other mechanic was mentioning about.

How much to add the cooling system? Is it a dyi?

Thanks

Nhi

 

[tpenfield]

Re: Old Bayliner vs Newer Bayliner Express Cruiser quality ...

Yeah that's what the other mechanic was mentioning about.

How much to add the cooling system? Is it a dyi?

Thanks

Nhi

About $1K for the 'kit' . . . it can be done DYI. About $2K for a shop to do it. Here is a link to the installation that I did on my 'twins'.

Closed Cooling Systems

 

[aerobat]

Re: Old Bayliner vs Newer Bayliner Express Cruiser quality ...

Would a well cared 2004 Bayliner worth a look against a better than average cared 2000 Four Winns, and a well cared 1997 Sea Ray? They all 24'. Assuming I could bargain them all to roughly the same price.

you must feel that the boat is right for you, than IMO its not that improtant if its a bayliner or sea ray. many people talk sea ray and from own experience sea rays shine in some points but do not shine in others.

my parents have a 2010 240DA sundancer . yes, its looks pretty, is well fabricated, good technical equipment BUT it struggles in seaworthiness , at least when we talk about real sea, not a lake.

its stern heavy and tends to list badly when a wave comes from the side without recovering by itself on plane. my european made 21footer cabin cruiser cannot compare in optics , fabrication and equipment , but outperforms the bigger sea ray in seaworthiness clearly.

cheers

 

[JoLin]

Re: Old Bayliner vs Newer Bayliner Express Cruiser quality ...

The one I was looking at was a 2004. First owner selling it. I thought it was a brand new replacement engine, but it turned out to be a total rebuilt because of salt water (so no closed loop cooling). Would that be a problem? Nhi

Okay, let's clarify something here. Being a 'salt water' engine didn't damage it in 8 years. No way, no how. What might have happened (wild *** guess) is that the exhaust manifolds/risers were so far gone (THEY need to be replaced every 5-8 years in a salt water engine) that they caused ancillary damage that required a rebuild. It wasn't being in salt water that killed that motor- it was an owner who didn't maintain it.

I've said it before and I'm gonna keep on saying it. A properly maintained salt water engine is good for 20-30 years, and that's WITHOUT regular flushing. There are things you need to do to keep it in good shape, but that's true of any boat in any environment.

If a boat you're interested in has a closed system, so much the better- but depending on how that system is configured (full closed, partial closed), you might STILL need to replace certain components (like mani's and risers) on a routine basis. I'm not that familar with the various setups- I've never had one, and I've never let the presence or lack of one influence my choice.

My .02

 

[Hai Nhi]

Re: Old Bayliner vs Newer Bayliner Express Cruiser quality ...

Thanks for the tips Ted, aerobat, & John.

I checked with the Bayliner's broker. They said the owner had the engine & outdrive rebuilt for about $16-18K recently, with receits. I made an offer on the low side, because it doesn't have a trailer, nor full camper canvas, nor closed cooling. I heard these 2 cost a lot ($2500 a good used trailer last time I check, not sure how much and where to check price/buy the camper canvas). They wanted $14K (dropped from $20k) for it. Everything else looks like new. Not sure if that's an okay deal or not. There's a 2000 Four Winns I mentioned a while back which I can get it for $16-$17, has everything (canvas, trailer, closed cooling). That's why my offer was below $12K, so that would be $17K after getting everything (assuming $2000 for the canvas).

I also saw a 1999 Sea Ray 270 at the same place, asking $26K but no trailer. I checked it out today and LOVE the layout. It's HUGE (to me), which is a big plus. Only down side again is the towing size & weight (total ~10000). I think I can tow it but that's quite a beast. I've been researching about it the last 2 days. The more I read/view videos, I more I like it. Hahaha. That boat should (have to) last me at least 5 years!!!

Also, I was wondering how much milage its 8.1L 415HP engine gets, compared to a stock on the Bayliner 245? Probably 1.5x-2x I figured, right? How much a trailer for this size of boat costs? I saw one used one (Cobalt) on CL for $5000. Dawn!!!

 

[JoLin]

Re: Old Bayliner vs Newer Bayliner Express Cruiser quality ...

From what I see you've reached a point where you need to make your first major decision- whether to buy a boat that you love (big), or whether to buy a boat you're comfortable with towing/launching/retrieving (small). Time to decide.

Questions about things like gas mileage are just muddying the water. They all suck. Does it really matter whether you'll get 1.5 mpg or 2.5 mpg? The 'which boat should I buy?' questions will resolve themselves once you've made the 'size' decision.

When I bought my Four Winns, it was a toss-up between it and a 1995 Larson 280 that we also liked alot. The 4Winns had much better 'camping out' capability than the Larson (better accommodations, much more fresh water capacity, bigger holding tank, a 2-burner alky/electric stove) while the Larson's cockpit had it all over the 4Winns for lounging with friends (full length side lounge seat, wraparound seating in the stern).

Every time we overnight on the water I'm glad I bought the Vista. Every time we're out for the day at a raftup with friends, I wish I'd bought the Larson... yet somehow we manage to have a great time anyway. No single boat is perfect boat for everything.

My .02

 

[tpenfield]

Re: Old Bayliner vs Newer Bayliner Express Cruiser quality ...

OK, my $0.02, again. (I think that makes me approaching about a buck-and-a-half, total)

Echoing some of the other thoughts . . . you have to 'feel' that the particular is right for you. It kind of takes you beyond the facts and figures.

That seems like 'crazy money' that was put into the Bayliner . . . it should not really impact the value on the plus side too much, as it was 'necessary' to bring the boat back into operating condition. I'd sure like to hear the story of why the engine and outdrive needed to be rebuilt at a fairly young age. :noidea:

Used trailers are tough to come by . . . Good ones will cost almost as much as new ones. The good news is that trailer prices have eased up a bit in the past few years as metal prices have come down. When I was considering a NEW trailer for my boat I was looking at about $3800 for the 28 foot boat trailer and about $5200 for the 33 foot boat trailer, brandy new. So, a trailer for a 24 foot boat should be around $3K and a trailer for a 27 footer might be around $3,500. Venture Trailers seem to be a good value IMHO.

Canvas enclosures are expensive if you have to buy them after the fact, as you mentioned, and that was one of my considerations in getting a used boat.

 

[JoLin]

Re: Old Bayliner vs Newer Bayliner Express Cruiser quality ...

I just reread my last post (after having coffee and something to eat) and I think it comes across as being a bit 'abrupt'. Sorry about that. I admire your persistence and the depth of your questions, but we're starting to go around in circles and I got a tad frustrated. None of us can tell you whether you should buy a big trailerable boat or a smaller trailerable boat. Only you can make that decision.

Once you do, I'll be glad to help you (along with the other fine folks here) narrow the field. The Bayliner might be a really good deal depending on how it's powered, if the drivetrain has a warranty, etc, etc. But if it's too small for you, you could buy it for $10K and it'd still be a lousy deal. Same with the Searay- might be the deal of the decade, but do you want to spend $20K on a boat if you dread having to leave the driveway?

Get what I'm trying to say?

 

[QC]

Re: Old Bayliner vs Newer Bayliner Express Cruiser quality ...

No single boat is perfect boat for everything.

Amen!

I am trying to remember if dry stack is out of the question.

 

[Hai Nhi]

Re: Old Bayliner vs Newer Bayliner Express Cruiser quality ...

Amen!

I am trying to remember if dry stack is out of the question.

Hahaha. I know what you mean. That's why I wrote earlier, if we get an open bow (or no boat for that matter), it's probably much easier.

 

[Hai Nhi]

Re: Old Bayliner vs Newer Bayliner Express Cruiser quality ...

Get what I'm trying to say?

Yes sir I really do .

I know I keep coming back with questions. But it's pretty hard to make any decision when you don't know anything yet. I got lucky to have you guys who are so knowledgable and in the boating hobby for a long while giving me advices. And, the more boat I check out, the more options tend to present themselves. Remember just a short while back, my budget was only $10-$15k. Now I'm looking into 27 footers, from sea ray. Hahaha. It could set me back close to $30k easily. Crazy. Hahaha

Sometimes I even thought about just getting something that'll allow us to cruise around the San Francisco Bay, that'll be nice already. Just wasn't sure if a 21' cuddy or 21' open bow would allow us to do so without causing sea sick in the could-be-rough water of the Bay. Then I can just skip the over night thingy for a couple of years.

I mean, I don't know what would be best. That's why all these scouting and questions and bothering and all-night sleepless.

As of RIGHT THIS MOMENT, I'm standing on a '98 270 sundancer to type these messages, next to a '02 & '03 260. It's good that they have both side by side for me to compare.

Cheers everyone. I should get back home (1.5 hr drive) in time for the Super Bowl. (First time watching the sport. Got some friends over 'cause we got the 120" projector screen).

Thanks again.

Nhi

 

[emilsr]

Re: Old Bayliner vs Newer Bayliner Express Cruiser quality ...

Have you thought about renting a boat for the weekend, just to try it on for size? Might be money well spent if it helps you to see what you truly like and don't like.

As was mentioned somewhere in one of these threads, there isn't a "perfect" boat; they're all compromises of some kind no matter how much you spend on the thing.

 

[Hai Nhi]

Re: Old Bayliner vs Newer Bayliner Express Cruiser quality ...

Thought about it. I still like a 27' (or bigger) better. . My wife likes ... zero boat. But I convinced her already . "Pre-approve" for up to a 24 footer now. But if I can get a deal on the 27', we'll keep it too. :grin:

I should know the answer by Tuesday about my offer on the '98 27'.
Got an answer from the seller on the '04 bayliner too.

Now it's no turning back, first choice would go to sea ray. . If that doesn't work out, I'll take the bayliner. I'm looking for place to price shop for the bayliner's camper canvas (sunbrella) to factor in the cost, making sure the deal is good.

 

[tpenfield]

Re: Old Bayliner vs Newer Bayliner Express Cruiser quality ...

Thought about it. I still like a 27' (or bigger) better. . My wife likes ... zero boat. But I convinced her already . "Pre-approve" for up to a 24 footer now. But if I can get a deal on the 27', we'll keep it too. :grin:

I should know the answer by Tuesday about my offer on the '98 27'.
Got an answer from the seller on the '04 bayliner too.

Now it's no turning back, first choice would go to sea ray. . If that doesn't work out, I'll take the bayliner. I'm looking for place to price shop for the bayliner's camper canvas (sunbrella) to factor in the cost, making sure the deal is good.

Just curious, if you have multiple offers out there at once? or are they going in rapid sequence ?

 

[Hai Nhi]

Re: Old Bayliner vs Newer Bayliner Express Cruiser quality ...

It's sequence. I made the offer on the 2004 Bayliner 245, factoring in all the extra expenses (trailer, full camper canvas which I still have no clue where to buy & how much, closed cooling add on, lower value on "bottom of the line" brand name). They lowered the price but still not enough. So I countered one more, they came back with a still higher than mine.

I then saw the sea ray 27' with all the space in both deck & cabin. Down side of course is a much bigger boat to start out with, and towing, on top of a $10-$12k premium (and 4-5 years older) than the Bayliner. But I figured if I can get a good enough deal out of it, then I'll go with the Sea Ray first. That's why I also made an offer for the Sea Ray yesterday. But broker office is off today, so I'll know the result tomorrow.

By then, I'll decide. But again, I still wonder where & how much that camper canvas worth.

Oh by the way, the Sea Ray got lots of water drops on the cabin ceiling. Looks like condensation. The broker said it was raining last week and what not. But it's not raining the last oh-say 10 days or so. Why would that happen?

Thanks.

Nhi

 

[QC]

Re: Old Bayliner vs Newer Bayliner Express Cruiser quality ...

My wife likes ... zero boat.

Dang, this is scary. I don't recall what your previous boating experience or what motivated you to get into boating. Whatever that was I sure hope your wife catches the bug. Boating needs to be a way of life for it to work easily. Good luck! And I mean that with no sarcasm whatsoever