Passion

[jtexas]

Re: Passion

* Mel Gibson's Passion of Christ as ultimate truth? It is an artistic expression. Significant, yes, but still an interpretation. A demonstration, a documentary, maybe.<br /><br />* It wouldn't be prudent to forget that Hitler's propaganda machine included images like this; there may very well be parts of the world where this movie could have more far-reaching effects than you've imagined. Not everybody is as tolerant as we are here in the good 'ol U.S. of A.<br /><br />* When I told my 14 year-old that I wasn't interested in seeing this movie she indignantly said, "that's like saying you aren't interested in Jesus." I reminded her that she's not always enthusiastic about going to Sunday School (an understatement), but that doesn't mean she's not interested in Jesus. <br /><br />* Question for discussion: how much of a sacrifice was it for God, really? I mean, where is Jesus now? Did God really "lose" his Son? Is there really any comparison with God instructing Abraham to offer up Isaac? not trying to be a smart-alec, honest, just searching through the fog.

 

[jtexas]

Re: Passion

Originally posted by SoulWinner:<br />There is irrefutable evidence that the RCC was somewhat other than neutral regarding the Third Reich. I don't think they had much of a choice, it was "go along with Hitler," a Catholic, or have a Panzer division come knocking on their doors. ...it still all comes down to people, right? ... It is silly for anyone to assume that the RCC could have had more than a nominal effect on Hitler or his activities during the war.

SW, a person of your convictions knows there's always a choice, but as humans we all too often choose poorly. Would Jesus have chosen to face the Panzers? I think maybe so. Guess I'm agreeing with you; we are in no position to judge the individuals who made those choices. But whatever effect the Church had on Hitler, it must have had tremendous impact on the lives of individuals. If you can't change the world, you can at least change your little part of it, right?

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: Passion

whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers<br />(meaning ALL people), that you do unto me...<br /><br />this is a movie we are talking about folks <br />to some of us, this movie will be a profound personal<br />experience.<br />those who only see it as another movie will still<br />receive great inspiration from the story.<br />(win/win)<br />like life, it is up to you what you will take away<br />from it.<br />as 4 mel... mad max, leathal weapon, now this? <br />pretty amazing stretch IMHO. what do all of these<br />movies have in common?

 

[JoeW]

Re: Passion

Plywoody,<br />

I don't think rational people will have a huge problem with that. Unfortunately, religious zealots are not always made up of rational people, and they scare me a bit.<br />

Irrational people are scary, but I refuse to alter my rational behavior to avoid conflict with with these people. <br /><br />From your responses, I get the sense that while you support other's right to believe how they wish, perhaps the world would have been better off without such a movie to "stir the pot". Is that a fair assesment?<br /><br />What troubles me is not the religious aspect of this assessment. I can understand that many people do not believe that Jesus was the son of God. I even understand that many people do not believe in God at all. What puzzles me is the apparent rejection of the message that Jesus conveys. What kind of world would this be should we all learn to love our enemies? I believe in the teachings of many other prophets (Confusious, Budda etc.) without worshipping those prophets. I find many of Buddist ideas on life and death to be very inspiring, yet I am not a Buddist. <br /><br />In my experience, irrational people tend to be irrational regardless of the subject at hand. It would be a scary world should we decide to avoid all subject matter that might trigger their irrationality.

 

[SoulWinner]

Re: Passion

Jtexas Wrote: * Question for discussion: how much of a sacrifice was it for God, really? I mean, where is Jesus now? Did God really "lose" his Son? Is there really any comparison with God instructing Abraham to offer up Isaac? not trying to be a smart-alec, honest, just searching through the fog.<br /><br />Ok Tex, when Christ was on the cross, at the very end when he cried out "why has thou forsaken me?" God had turned his back on Jesus. Why did he do this? For God himself could not bear to see the sin of all mankind being poured upon Christ. It was the sin that Christ was referring to when asked His father if the cup could passed to another (when He prayed in the garden of Gethsemane), and this is the ONLY time God refused to answer Jesus. From Gods silence, Jesus knew that he must accept the sin of man, to be the final blood sacrifice, not to cover mans sin, but to absolve him of it. For a man/God, perfectly holy and canctified in every way to bear up the awesome weight of mans sin was a crushing concept for Jesus, but through His mighty strength, he bore the sin. You see, holiness and sin mix like water and oil. They are diametrically opposed. The reason for the blood sacrifice in the old testament was to cover mans sin , to insulate God from it. But it didn't absolve the sin. The only way to do this was to offer a perfect sacrifice; a sinless and innocent sacrifice that was given out love for man, so that mans sin COULD be forgiven. Oh what a price He paid for loving ME

 

[ndemge]

Re: Passion

...so I was the only one in the theater whistling.... <br /><br />"always look on the bright side of life....."

 

[jtexas]

Re: Passion

"...blessed are the cheesemakers..."

 

[ndemge]

Re: Passion

What's that? He says the Birds are Scrounging!

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: Passion

I heard a politically conservative Jewish commentator make a good point on MSNBC. He was invited by Mel to prescreen the movie and at the end he told Mel, "Christians will see Christ crucified for 2 hours and Jews will see Jews killing Christ for 2 hours."<br /><br />I heard Christopher Hitchens, a writer for Vanity Fair say that he though Mel was a closet homosexual for making the movie. Some insane point about violence to beautiful half dressed men. He attacked Mel in the beautiful, poetic and cutting way he has. CH and I agree on 99% of issues.<br /><br />I read in the NYT where the Hollywood Jewish community are never going to work with Mel again for making such and antisemitic movie.<br /><br />I have heard other Jewish leaders call Mel antisemitic and all sorts of other names.<br /><br />I have have heard Jewish and secular columnists condemn the violence of the movie while in past reviews they have praised the violence in movies like "Kill Bill" and "Natural Born Killers."<br /><br />All that said, my concern is not that the movie will cause antisemitism but that the debate, and the vitriol with which Mel and the movie are being attacked will cause it.

 

[SoulWinner]

Re: Passion

Hi Ralph <br /><br />It's time for us to call the local Jewish Temple, or go down there Friday afternoon, and ask to see the Rabbi, and tell him you love him and you love his people, ask them not to persecute you for your Christian beliefs and this movie. Do it with true unadulterated LOVE. You will be pleasantly surprised.

 

[Carphunter]

Re: Passion

Howdy Soulwinner! <br />Well, we went and saw the movie last night, and really, what can I say without sounding foolish. Religion is something fairly new to me. We have been attending, (and are members), of Unity Chapel United Methodist Church. We have been attending for about four years now. As a child, we only attended Church on special occasions. So I am like a little kid in Kindergarten while I am at Church. There is so much for me to learn, and i'm like a sponge, just soaking it all up. With all that being said, it might explain my perspective a little better.<br /> The movie affected me in a way that I cannot put into words. I do most of my Bible reading from my children's Bible's. I just have a hard time reading some of the other versions because I don't understand some of the words and their meanings. (call me stupid, thats ok ). I knew that Jesus had been tortured before he was crucified, but I had no idea the extent of his suffering. To think that he did this for me, and for you, and for everyone, is just overwhelming to me. The ultimate sacrifice because he loves us so much.<br />It was the hardest movie to watch that I have ever seen, yet I felt that I must watch every second. For me, you could read all the words to describe his suffering, but to actually see it puts it into a little better perspective, again, for me anyway. He did it all for us! Because he loves us! Yes, it was hard to watch. To watch the son of man suffer as he did, but it is important for everyone to understand why this happened, and how it happened.<br />This movie helps me understand things a little better. Everyone knows the story, but sometimes a little visual stimulation helps get the point across. I will never be the same after watching this. There are so many things to contemplate after watching this movie that my small brain could not begin to comprehend them all. Just like when i'm in Church, there are so many things to think about, and learn, and understand, yet I look forward to spending the rest of my life contemplating these things. I realize that there are some things I will never understand, and thats ok, for someday all my questions will be answered.<br />This movie is just another way to teach people what happened, why would anyone think that is bad? I look forward to learning more and more and more, so like a Christian is supposed to do, I can teach others. <br /><br />Praise his name, for he is our savior!<br /><br />God bless you all!<br /><br />.......and have a fine day.

 

[JoeW]

Re: Passion

Carphunter,<br />

I do most of my Bible reading from my children's Bible's. I just have a hard time reading some of the other versions because I don't understand some of the words and their meanings. (call me stupid, thats ok ).

You're not stupid and your not alone. I'm in much the same boat as you are. My wife is devout Catholic as are my kids (I promised to raise them in the Catholic faith). I call myself the pagen baby, as I had no organized religious education as a child. Now, there's so much to learn. The biblical stories that I hear sound so interesting, but when I try to read/interpret them from the Bible Of course, the problem with the most popular Protestant version of the Bible, the King James Version, is the fact that it was written/translated in King James' time, 1611, using old English. Not many of us understand old English too well anymore. The Catholic version is even worse, having been translated from Latin. <br /><br />With that said, I'm wondering if anyone can recommend a version of the Bible that can be read/understood by laymen. I want something that holds true to the scriptures, but also explains the contexts under which they were written etc. I'd prefer it in software form, if possible. <br /><br />Mel Gibson's work is extraordinary for several reasons, not the least of which is that this is one of the most sacred stories of the Christian faith. What I find facinating is that the film makes such great attempts to adhere to the integrity of the scriptures. To capture the dialog in Hebrew was something so unusual, especially for an American made film. It makes me want to read more about this story. It makes me want to learn Hebrew. Unfortunately, I don't have time to learn Hebrew, Latin and Old English.<br /><br />I guess I can understand the origins of some of the apprehensions about this film. Some pretty awful things have transpired through out history in the name of "The Church". But those were Man's failings to live up to the teachings of Jesus. <br /><br />As for the antisemitism:<br />

I heard a politically conservative Jewish commentator make a good point on MSNBC. He was invited by Mel to prescreen the movie and at the end he told Mel, "Christians will see Christ crucified for 2 hours and Jews will see Jews killing Christ for 2 hours."

I believe this is right on the money. Imagine the guilt one would feel should they believe their ancestors could have had a hand in killing the one who might just have been the true messiah. I'm not sure I would want to be reminded of that too often either. But, then again, we somehow need to let Jews know that we don't see this as "Jews" killing Jesus. It was "Man" who killed Jesus. But this was his destiny.

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: Passion

still on crutches, so have not seen yet... but am<br />looking forward to checking it out.<br />a friend brougt up an example of one scene that<br />was not bible supported when we talked... the<br />garden scene. says nothin bout JC gettin beat up<br />as he was arrested... so at least a portion of it<br />is the director's vision.<br />common sense tells me that mel is prob. close in<br />this sit. even if it's not supported in the bible.<br />didn't somebody get an ear chopped off?<br />MY point:<br />u don't need anything or anybody else to tell you<br />how you should/will feel/learn from this movie.<br />people will take with them exactly what they need<br />at that moment, regardless of religious affiliation.<br />sidenote:<br />Carp, glad u were able to learn something.<br /> <br />M.Y.

 

[JoeW]

Re: Passion

MY,<br />I think your right about the director's vision. I think that's one thing that makes it interesting. I'm not sure that the Bible speaks to exactly how severely he was beaten before being crucified either. But judging from what I've heard about the practice of crusifiction, it may not be far off the mark. As I understand it, a typical crusifiction victim would take days to die. IMHO The fact that Jesus died so quickly would tend to imply that he wasn't in too good of shape when he was put up there. <br />-Joe

 

[mattttt25]

Re: Passion

i didn't kill jesus.

 

[Carphunter]

Re: Passion

<br /><br />Mellow, you tryin to say i'm a slow learner? Is that what your tryin to say? ................Just leave me alone, I got some leaves to burn................WHERE'S THE GAS!!!!!!! <br /><br />(btw - Hope you get off them crutches soon there buddy).

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: Passion

Hey Carp your previous post was very moving. I am sure that is what Mel was hoping for.<br /><br />I am a Catholic and wore a crucifix for many years and saw one behind the alter every time I went to church. I had no true conception of how he suffered.

 

[jtexas]

Re: Passion

Originally posted by joew94th:<br />The fact that Jesus died so quickly would tend to imply that he wasn't in too good of shape when he was put up there. <br />-Joe

The cause of death in crucifiction is asphyxiation - hanging from your arms pulls your diaphram up against your lungs. You have to push up with your legs to take pressure off your lungs so you can draw breath. Fastening a prisoner to a cross with nails was very unusual, and I imagine that having the tendons in your feet ripped apart like that would seriously hinder your ability to breathe.<br /><br />The executioners ordinarily broke the legs of the condemned after a while to cut down on the waiting time. In the Bible, when the guards came around to break the legs of the prisoners, they found Jesus already dead, which fufilled an Old Testament prophecy that none of his bones would be broken.

 

[aspeck]

Re: Passion

Carpy,<br /><br />Thanks for your thoughts after seeing the movie - it will be a long time till I get to see it, but I am so glad that it is effecting so many in such a profound way. Heard that in my home church last Sunday's sermon was about the Passion of Christ:<br /><br />Senior Pastor expounded upon the three acts of the drama that are shown in the film: 1) the trial - shows us God's purpose; 2) His Death - shows us God's passion (suffering); & 3) the Resurrection - shows us God's power. Also gave us three ways we should respond to the passion of Christ: 1) love <br />Christ with all of my heart, soul & might; 2) hate sin; & 3) tell others. I had emails from several telling me how moved they were.<br /><br />Joe, you asked about translations - here is my take, for what it is worth. I live to read the Living Bible, but it is a paraphrase, not a translation, meaning it is what a group of people believe the Bible meant when it said ... I will use it as a reading source, but not a study Bible. For studying, I will use the King James some, but will also use the New Century version - very easy to understand, and the New International Version and the Revised Standard Version. These, to me, seem to be the most acurate to the original language, and yet are very readable and understandable.<br /><br />Hope that helps with your Bible Study. If I can help in any way, let me know.

 

[SoulWinner]

Re: Passion

Carpy,<br /><br />I'm with you all the way brother <br /><br />Mattttt,<br /><br />We all killed Jesus.