Rebuild or Repower

[roscoe]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

Lake Runner, the last year the 85hp was made was 1989. So either you made a typo, of someone is giving you a line.<br /><br />Did you mean a 75hp? 3 cylinder? single carb? if so, it should work.<br /><br />I wouldn't own any Force motor from the 80's because of the ignition systems.<br /><br />RRitt, I don't know. Tend to agree on the number of failures, but not on the cause. Still think it is "first boat/new boater" syndrome,<br />no maintenence, improper fuel mixing, no common sense, etc, that causes most motor failures.

 

[imported_LakeRunner]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

The seller may have listed it incorrectly. I will try to verify the year and HP from him since I have his email address. He listed it as an 85 Force then in the description he states the following "we have a 97 force outboard powerhead and mid section no tilt and trim no foot motor was running fine when pulled off put a new yamaha on sold foot and tilt and trim already dont feel like pulling power head off mid section probably will need carbs cleaned". the picture show a powerhead with what looks like three carbs and an arrestor plate in the front of them. I know that shell will take 70 to 90 HP Force powerheads from 91 to 95.

 

[RRitt]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

roscoe, <br />they changed the stators and carberators. it seems to me that a lot of late model problems are tracing back to ignition or lean fuel mix rather than operator error.<br /><br />I know that fuel injection mechanics who are used to computer diagnostics will have a tendency to set carberators lean ... but that's only if they even try to adjust the mixture. I bet 90% of them don't even bother checking it. Which would mean that burning lean is a result of system drift (i.e. a poorly engineered part).

 

[imported_LakeRunner]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

The tech who torn down my engine stated that it looked as if the reed failed and the cylinder was getting a lean mixture which lead to the piston detonation and then the bearing failed causing the the rod to fail and eventually damaging the crankshaft.

 

[RRitt]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

great lead on info lake runner ... now the plot thickens.<br /><br />Early engines had a completely different reed. It looks like they made the change in 1991. Earlier engines had a reed plate with 5 petal replaceable reed. Later engines had a "reed block assembly". The only engine that appears to have retained the original chrysler design was the 40/50HP. It would be interesting to know if the 50's are blowing out pistons with same frequency as the 70+.<br /><br />hmmmm .... maybe that's why there are so many 70hp+ 1990's engines on ebay with blown out pistons?<br /><br />But there's good news. It looks like they didn't change the manifolds or plates. If you could get your hands on some Chrysler reeds then you should be able to retrofit them.

 

[imported_LakeRunner]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

The shop I took the powerhead to for evaluation wants 1500 to rebuild the motor. I found a rebuilt powerhead for 1300 at another shop. I also found someone who has an 85 Force powerhead for sale for 1/3 of the cost of the rebuild. I am still waiting to find out if it was the year he listed or the HP.

 

[RRitt]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

even more info ...<br /><br />checked ebay past and present ads for force 40/50 engines. dozens of engines, all of them running. Very few parts. The percentage of 40/50's being parted out is miniscule wheras the percentage of mid-90 3/4/5 cylinder engines being parted out is substantial.<br /><br />So maybe the mystery of how Darth Brunswick killed the force is solved. He blew their guts out with defective reeds.<br /><br />of course that still leaves me with the question of stators. Why are so many mid-90 Force owners talking about recently replaced stators? I thought those things were suppossed to last forever.<br /><br />what went wrong with your stator Lake Runner?

 

[imported_LakeRunner]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

The engine would not turn over so I started checking all electricals as the manual stated. When I got to the stator test, that's where the numbers didn't match. So I replaced the stator. What I failed to remember was to have the timing checked and adjusted. The new stator may have advanced the timing enough that it leaned the mixture to the number 3 cylinder and caused the piston to detonate and the rest is history. Now I'm looking at rebuilding the powerhead for 1500 or putting on a one already rebuilt for 1300 or my third choice is to buy a used powerhead like the one I mentioned in the previous postings.

 

[RRitt]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

hmmm ....<br /><br />I'm not a big believer in coincidence. I like to attribute things to a cause and an effect. Even if you did have your timing set wrong, there is still an awfully strong correlation between all the blown powerheads on ebay and the mercury reed. Conversely, there are very few engines with chrysler reeds that are being parted out due to detonated pistons. It's just too big a coincidence for me to ignore. Nor do I find it entirely plausible that all those blown motors on Ebay had their timing set wrong.<br /><br />If it was me, I'd play it safe and make sure my new engine had the old style reed plates with new leafs. You could get some old chrysler reed plates off ebay for dirt cheap and put them on your existing manifold. Maybe even spring the extra $10 per cylinder for new leafs. Seems like an awfully cheap insurance policy to me.

 

[imported_LakeRunner]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

I'm quite sure that metal fatigue played a big part in those reed failures. Use inferior parts and eventually something will fail. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. The question is that is there enough solid evidence to file class action suit and sue Force for all those failed engines?

 

[imported_LakeRunner]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

Roscoe, you are correct, Force built the 85HP from 1983 to 1989. It is a 3 cylinder so my hope is that it would fit the 1995 70HP lower unit. The only noticable difference is that it has three carbs instead of the 70's one carb.

 

[Bry21317]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

Hey Lake Runner,<br />I am also In Raleigh, I have a Force 125HP engine on my boat. I love the motor. Runs very strong and never messes up.<br /><br />I have a Great Mechanic, hes not to expensive, and might have extra parts.<br /><br />His Name is Mr. Williams, older guy, but been working on boats forever. He is out off Hwy 98, in Durham County by Falls lake. His prices are very reasonable, and I am sure he can find you anything you need.<br /><br />Williams Outboard<br />919-596-4740<br /><br />Hes also one of the Only mechanics that I have ever heard say that the Force Engines are one damn good motor. As he states there are so many old ones out there, and they are still running strong.<br /><br />My Email is bry21317@nc.rr.com<br /><br />See ya on the lake,<br />Bryan

 

[Bry21317]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

I replaced my Reeds with the Boyeson Reeds. I will be doing it again this season, as I will keep them in good condition for sure. I have had them in for about 2 years now, they gave me a lot of power out of my Force 125, it really woke that puppy up.<br /><br />It would pull me out of the water before them, but not near as fast, now it rips my arms off pulling me out of the water on the wakeboard or skis. Much better than having to hold on and drag in the water, before the boat got up to speed for me to get up. Now its like snap, and your up and ready to go.<br /><br />Mine is an 88 model, very very very few problems ever. Only things I have had to do are clean out the carbs, and just had a needle sticking in one of them that gave me all sorts of grief, but other than that, this motor has been strong for the 8 years I have owned it. Never once in the shop until 3 weeks ago, when I couldn't figure out the sticking float needle, or figure out how to fix it, even though I replaced it. My Mechanic replaced it with an older Chrysler needle and said it now works like a champ. So he knows what to do, and can get any Force Part you need, normally has them the next day even.<br /><br />So you can't beat that.<br /><br />Bryan

 

[imported_LakeRunner]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

Thanks Bry21317, I will check with him on the parts. I boat on Falls, Jordan and Gaston. I took my powerhead to a guy down in Rocky Point, NC who works specifically on powerheads. They tear down the block a tell you everything you need and he did it for 30 bucks. It's just gonna cost me 1500 to put humpty back together again!

 

[RRitt]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

Bry21317,<br /><br />sounds great. better power and maybe better gas mileage. I found the boyesen web site and identified the reeds. But they say just over $100. Is that per cylinder? I got two engines with six cylinders. Jeez louise. Ouch .... ouch, ouch, ouch and double ouch. That's a decade's worth of maintenance expense. Friggin-A. That can't be right. Chrysler valves are only $10 a pop once you have the plates.<br /> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_W0QQitemZ4628697794 <br /> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_W0QQitemZ4550155589 <br /><br />Maybe that is a per engine kit price? I could live with that. Does it really cost $100 a cylinder for boyesen?

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

force made adecent product, the same stator failures with the merc ign happened with the mercs and the kits were the same for both. the later style reeds did have a tendancy to fail and was worse if the engine was overpropped or overspeeded, was especially bad on a sportjet 90 or 120 with a worn impeller/liner assy. had a few of the 50's break as well and some of the merc 25HP motors. however with PROPER maint they did last a long time. most died cause they were on entry level boats and new owners that had everything financed to the hilt and did no maint.<br /> show me a 17 bayliner package with a 50 force that was financed with no money down when new and ill show you a motor that died a horrible death from lack of maint, same with a 3.0 mercruiser in a bayliner or trophy.

 

[RRitt]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

I don't think that an 85hp head will fit your lower unit.

 

[imported_LakeRunner]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

I had a funny suspicion that it would not work but I need to ask any way. Ok ,so stop ribbing me about my entry level boat. My other boat is a 2004 SeaRay 290 and it has a marina maintenance package so I don't have to keep up with schedules. I bought this boat to run on the lake when I didn't feel like driving 2 hours to the coast. This was my second season with this boat and last year I started performing the regular maintenance stuff then the stator failed and it was down hill after that! Got a couple good runs then the boat died on the lake. So now I have to teach myself how to rebuild an engine. I would say thats part of the learning curve. After I do this I'll be a master of the "Force".

 

[RRitt]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

just an opinionated rant, but maybe something that helps you in your search for an engine.<br /><br />being spring, it's probably a seller's market. Last january there was 2-3 complete and working 3bangers being sold within 75 miles of my house. Each of them only fetched between $300 and $600. Local mechanics are advising everyone to sell their force engines. "Your gas bulb broke? Oh, well then you should get rid of that Force engine." The result is dirt cheap prices on all forces regardless of vintage or power.<br /><br />i'd patiently look for a good earlier vintage 3or4 banger with tight compression numbers. I don't trust mercury any further than I can spit and I definitely don't trust their re-engineering of chrysler's design. Mercury crapped all over those engines and then tried to make it look like it was some inherently bad design that they inherited from chrysler. IMO, chysler engineering made one of the most inherently rugged, simplistic, and economical outboards ever built. Then mercury re-engineered it to be a cheaply built source of parts revenue.<br /><br />so - if it were me - i wouldn't try to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. I'd go either go looking for a chrysler/force or I'd look for something entirely different that has no affiliation with brunswick/mercury. maybe a nice little johnie. But probably an old chrysler. The cost of ownership just can't be beat.

 

[imported_LakeRunner]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

"Bayliner for Sale - mechanics special, great deal for tinker types! PH is gone but everything else works great!" I going back to SeaRay, this is just too frustrating. There was a time you could get a good boat and a good motor and just drive till the fiberglass falls off. Bry21317 gave a lead on a good mechanic so I am going to follow up on that as soon as I get the PH back from the machine shop.