Regelcoating catwalk and engine covers

[Outback Jack]

Re: Regelcoating catwalk and engine covers

I have NEVER seen gelcoat applied with a sprayer as thick as rolling it on.

Sure there are additives for gel coat but wax is just fine. It works, period. If the gelcoating is done at the dock it is standard practice here to use gelcoat with wax and then remove the wax with acetone once cured. If you can do multiple coats in a day, then wax only in the last coat. May be easier ways, but that doesn't make this the wrong way.

I sprayed gelcoat everyday..I use to coat up to 85ml , in one coat, was the finish acceptable to look at as a finish...No...is was to be chopped after so it was acceptable. Myself I would roll it on a deck.

That is why there are so many different opinions here at iboats. Seems to be a trend here debate between pro's and diyer's . Some people are diyers and some people are actual pros. GUYS I don't say a Pro is someone in your back yard or who just opens up a shop to start. Damn I got maney years experience spraying molds and running chop gun everyday building and designing everything and I am no PRO at Finishing A Boat to the level I would say A Pro did it :facepalm: As for laying fiberglass I am the BEST

I worked at a welding shop we built trucks for different companies right up to cherry pickers etc, You get it we start with a cab and build on from scratch and actually weld the body together. I use to spray primer etc but never the finish. I tried to do some work to my old bronco one time and it turned out ok but who cares when your going down the road. I could have taken the truck up the road and had a shop do it for less then what I paid for product. He is no pro and he admits it but he makes it look good for a couple years.

My buddy is an actual Pro at redoing cars and will not redoe any car . He did my Trans am 19 years ago and people don't believe it has ever been painted I paid BIG Bucks , but let me tell you that is the difference . We can do good work and make it look real good but if you can bring your work up to a Pro level you are no DIY'er

That is the thing let's share our findings and experience of working with the products and we will get er done and look good . As for the Pro they have experience and know what works for them on a daily basis and also they see what never worked for them . Over their years of being a Pro. I want to see stuff they done 20 years ago and if it lasts. Also Pro's have to remember we are diy'ers and don't have the tools or access to supplies , we have to use what is available to us. For instance Wax

As a Diy'er we get the gratification of seeing our final product get praise for a job well done. Is it at a pro level well maybe not but it looks damn good and ya feel damn good looking at the finish product.

Myself I take advice form all but when it comes down to which way i go I look at experience and I thank the experience'd for their advice. Experience means alot more to me then looking good when it is done, look at it in 5 years .

Let's all work together and get er done

I come here to share and read good projects not to read about who does it the best way or who get's support from the gods and you know who they are , be it they are pros or diyers.

Hope everyone the best of luck.

Cheers

Jack

 

[proshadetree]

Re: Regelcoating catwalk and engine covers

Well said Jack I am a jack of all trades but a master of none. This boat was reworked in 2001. So it has ten years of wear and tear on the deck to be looked at.
I could spray gel on it I have a gun bought for a different project. My sprayed gel has a very nonskid finish to it, called orange peel. I have never rolled gel or bed liner. I value everyone's opinion.
Ondarvr I would consider a pro. Yd well pro there also. Bondo if not a pro very knowledgeable. Chris while maybe not a pro brings up some good points. Now if you are the Outback Jack from a different forum spraying gel into molds making a new boat well I will consider you a pro also.
I want the best material that I can apply regardless of tool cost. On a different project I have not started the pros told me not to re-flake my old Sidewinder. I don't agree with that. They stated I would not be happy with my results. Well I probably wont and will have to take their advice and spend twice the money to repair after I try it. This is not that type of project. It is a person needing the opinions and results from pros and DIY people that have done this type of operation so I can form an opinion and go from there.
I am looking for someone local to redo the bottom of this boat and service the drives now as I currently do not have the space. time or the equipment to move the boat. I will own a truck and trailer to pull this boat ASAP. Is that wise? No but I do not like the hassle of scheduling and getting the puller aligned with the inspector, hull person and the man doing the out drives. For me it isnt the issue of money to get it done but the fact I am at the mercy of the people doing the work. I like the fact when I do a job it is well done and it is on my schedule. I also don't need the nightmare of a DIYer that has business license messing up my boat and me trying to drown them after.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Regelcoating catwalk and engine covers

Ok..well first off, I know my writing style is not best and can come off sounding confrontational when it is not meant to be . Its just a fact finding thing. I do not like coming to the forum finding posts/suggestions that are not only "inaccurate" but sometimes out and out "incorrect". So I make my stand based on Fact other than suggestion. Its all about getting the correct information when coming here and asking questions.

Back to the OP..

Proshadetree .. here is the deal on "topcoats" ( be it GC or AG or Imron or Durabek or latex or whatever ) .. its all in the Prep.

We have a saying in the industry. Prep is the Prep is the Prep! Prep is Key.

Keeping that in mind..you can not prep for something until you know what it is that your prepping for.

Your going to use some kind of "Product". Lets say your kicking around two different products to use. Product A requires a specific "sanding profile/grit" than Product B. Does product B require some kind of primer that needs to be applied first ? Does product B's primer require a sand profile that is different than that of product A ? Did you Sand/prep thinking that your going to use Product A and then changed your mind to switch to product B ? Yup .. you guessed it..its very possible that your going to be sanding Again.

Point being is that you should be dedicated on the final product that you want. The product ( whatever it is ) will dictate how you start all the way through how its finished.

As far as rolling Gelcoat with nonskid .. I never suggested you can not do it ( or should not do it ). I would suggest that without your upcoming pics that the procedure might be more then just simply grabbing some gel,roller,wax,mekp,tape and then just rolling it on .. and giving stunning results.

Some kind of bedliner application ? .. well your gonna have to talk to the bedliner guys.

Peace YD.

 

[proshadetree]

Re: Regelcoating catwalk and engine covers

Hopefully I can get the bottom done and get this baby down here and get started on it. I really appreciate the advice and opinions of the people here. I am going blind as I have never done this kind of project and would like to thank everyone for the glimmers of light they provide to the end result.

 

[chriscraft254]

Re: Regelcoating catwalk and engine covers

This is the last project I did,a 1985 Gibson. The upper deck was overlayed with two layers of 3/8 ply in opposite directions and screwed off every 8 inches in the field and every 4 inches on the seams.. Seams and screws filled and then deck glassed in. Then three coats of gelcoating. After gelcoating, all railing plates were 5200 in and all mounting screws were 5200 bedded. I use waxed on all coats with acetone and then washed off with detergent and water between coats. I used Mar Pro gelcoating. This is what they recommend for cleaning off the wax. I quikly sanded the deck down after wax was removed before each additional coat was applied.

I could have applied 3 coats with just the last coat getting wax for cure, but did not want to walk on the tacky gel coat to reach all areas. This is how it looks done. This was all rolled on. It is simply the easiest way for a dyier to do the decks on a houseboat imo.

I will be doing the lower decks this spring and already have remodeled the entire interior.

I have decks that were done 20 years ago that still are holding up great done this way. The one thing about houseboats, is it will keep people like myself busy, because the way they construct them from the factory is just cheap at best.

Good luck with your project.

Budd

 

[proshadetree]

Re: Regelcoating catwalk and engine covers

Budd wow that looks great. What roller? what gel? Did you thin it? Where do you get your supplies? I am close to your local. That roof looks great in the photos. My old girl has been gone through recently just the deck stinks. Roof looks great. Roof is white with blue speck. Anyone have an ideal how to do this? I will probably just omit the specks and go white. What lake are you on we will sit this one on the hollow.

 

[chriscraft254]

Re: Regelcoating catwalk and engine covers

Budd wow that looks great. What roller? what gel? Did you thin it? Where do you get your supplies? I am close to your local. That roof looks great in the photos. My old girl has been gone through recently just the deck stinks. Roof looks great. Roof is white with blue speck. Anyone have an ideal how to do this? I will probably just omit the specks and go white. What lake are you on we will sit this one on the hollow.

I get my gelcoating through Marinesales here in louisville, basically because they can have it at my door locally within two days. . I use just a standard small roller. I spread the gel with a sqeegee and then back roll it. I always roll the gel into the gel if that makes since, just like painting. The less you work it the better. I do not htin the gel coating.

Most the speckled decks are speckled after all the gel coating is applied. In a factory I am sure they have a special sprayer but not sure. I usually lead people away from that look because it looks much cleaner just white imo.

I boat mainly on the ohio river now. Looking to get down to the lakes in the spring and do some striper fishing.

Here is a really good place for supplies, there prices are very good compared to some others. http://www.fiberglasssite.com/servlet/StoreFront Of coarse you always have Iboats also..

 

[proshadetree]

Re: Regelcoating catwalk and engine covers

Foam paint roller? Long nap or is there a special roller for doing gelcoat?

 

[chriscraft254]

Re: Regelcoating catwalk and engine covers

Foam paint roller? Long nap or is there a special roller for doing gelcoat?

Long nap roller covers for decks. The foam roller covers doesn't hold enough gel coat in them for me and the long nap roller seems to spread it better. I use cheap rollers and cheap roller covers. Have had good luck with these from lowes. I make sure I remove the roller cover before it sets up on roller and toss it. I pour the gel on to the surface and spread it out with the roller and sometimes a bondo spreader or sqeegee. but always back roll it with the roller.

I think the small roller nap is like 3/8" nap. Here is a pic of what I use.

This is the gel coat I used on the project above.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Regelcoating catwalk and engine covers

Then three coats of gelcoating. After gelcoating, all railing plates were 5200 in and all mounting screws were 5200 bedded. I use waxed on all coats with acetone and then washed off with detergent and water between coats.

Why would you use wax with acetone coatings ?..why would you Wash off with detergent with gelcoat ? Just wondering..

I used Mar Pro gelcoating. This is what they recommend for cleaning off the wax. I quikly sanded the deck down after wax was removed before each additional coat was applied.

How do you quickly sand after wax removal ? Total Re-prep before Each Coat of Gel ?

I could have applied 3 coats with just the last coat getting wax for cure, but did not want to walk on the tacky gel coat to reach all areas. This is how it looks done. This was all rolled on. It is simply the easiest way for a dyier to do the decks on a houseboat imo.

[/QUOTE]

Why are there Ply lines ?

This is a Quick and Dirty.

Problem is..you could have glassed the seams and then did your topcoat..seamless..but you didnt do that.

Perfect example of a quick DIY VS. Pro. ( and we pros dont do all that much more ).

ONE Day can get rid of that Seam .. 20 bucks guys. You have left over resin and glass..and one more weekend on taking your time.

Go the Quick way out and your going to get the same results as a someone who spent bucks on there resto..but not enough time.

Cheap resin and patience will overcome Expensive and instant gratification .. every time..

Sorry for the rant..

YD.

 

[chriscraft254]

Re: Regelcoating catwalk and engine covers

YD, since you think everyone elses jobs are such crap, why don't you post up some pics of some houseboat decks that you have completed.

The decks after gelcoated were wiped down with acetone to remove the wax, then washed with detergent to remove any residual. Then prepped for the next coat of gel by sanding. More time than laying 3 coats with wax on the last coat, yup. This also gives me a chance to sand any imperfections that might have been missed.

A strong strength laundry detergent and a scrub brush is really all you need to remove the wax after it is cured. Don't know what seams your seeing, maybe just the lighting or something in the pic. This deck was fully glassed/resined in. All glass overlaps are tapered and sanded smooth before applying gelcoating. Not just the deck was overlayed on that job, the raised sections under the railing were also raised and formed to match the existing profile that was on the boat. It looks like it has always been there, which is the way it should be.

To me, you are a valuable contributor here, If you want to give professional advice on your methods, go ahead, I will appreciate it as much as the next guy. But trying to say everyone elses methods are wrong and there work is crap and it won't last just is you being big headed my almighty professional. This boats upper deck was completely delaminated before and it looks great now and will last for 20 years or more if maintained. Working dockside around water, is not like working in dry dock. My customers are happy. Good day.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Regelcoating catwalk and engine covers

There is a difference in many situations in how a DIY'er would do a job and how a professional in the business would do it, sometimes the DIY'er methods are better, sometimes they aren’t. In the construction of new boats the methods used frequently by the builders include short cuts, or maybe just a lack of attention to detail that results in a finished product that works well for a period of time, but long term it fails. The biggest and most obvious example of this is in transoms and stringers, if the wood isn't encapsulated and sealed off correctly (including screw holes) the wood rots.

In the repair or rebuild business the workers or owners see and fix the failures from the production line and/or the DIY’er every day, they get to see what does and doesn’t work and try to fix failures with methods that will last much longer.

A boat owner from this site will probably do a better job of rebuilding his boat when compared to how it was originally built. The main reason is he is very concerned about doing a good job and he typically does some research and evaluates several methods and products that can be used to do the repairs, then picks one that will fit his needs the best. A typical employee in one the plants back then had little training, wasn’t a boater, had no clue about wood rotting or anything else, he was just showing up for a paycheck. The employee also has a limited amount of time to do a job, the DIY’er can take as long as it needs to do it they way they want (which may or may not be correct).

When it comes to the methods used there can be misunderstands, misconceptions, lack of knowledge, bad information, poor training, plus other things that can lead to boats being built, or repairs being made that aren’t as good as they could be, or are made much more difficult than they need to be.

In this situation it’s not a good idea to add wax to anything but the final layer and there are no benefits, only the potential for a failure and it adds a great deal of time and work to an otherwise easy and quick job. The other issue is it appears you aren’t using any type nonskid surface other than the texture the roller leaves in the gel coat.

Adding wax and waiting for it to cure requires that you thoroughly clean and sand 100% of the surface between each coat, if there is any wax or un-sanded areas left they are at risk for failure. It may not fail short term, but long term the chances go up greatly. Not that it can’t be done this way, only that it adds time, additional work and a risk of failure.

The other issue, which a pro doing a repair couldn’t get away with due to liability reasons, is in not using a nonskid surface. The first person that slipped and got hurt would soon own everything you have. When applying gel coat with a roller it normally leaves a textured surface, but there normally isn’t any tooth to it, the grip is OK when dry, but can become very slick if wet, add fuel, moss, slime, a spilled drink, rain, etc, and you have a surface that can be as slick as ice.

Don’t take this in the wrong way, I’m not trying to slam you, a person can use any methods they please on their own boat, and it appears you did very good job on the deck in the pics. But when you are doing work for other people, plus recommending methods for other people to use, the methods and recommendations require more scrutiny.

 

[chriscraft254]

Re: Regelcoating catwalk and engine covers

In this situation it’s not a good idea to add wax to anything but the final layer and there are no benefits, only the potential for a failure and it adds a great deal of time and work to an otherwise easy and quick job. The other issue is it appears you aren’t using any type nonskid surface other than the texture the roller leaves in the gel coat.

Sure it is "convenient" to be able to apply 3 coats of gel, with the last being waxed for cure. Not debating that! Most the jobs I do are on the river, not it a warehouse or in a covered shop or in a boat yard where tarps can be astrune across whatever. I am limited by many rules within the marinas including tarping off things and having tools and equipment any place other than on the boat I am working on. I am also not allowed to allow fumes to last but for a very short while. When doing houseboat decks on the water, you are limited by weather conditions wether it be to hot, not hot enough, to much humidity etc etc etc. I lay gelcoating when conditions for the cure and the time I have available mix. That is why when doing a large area such as the deck above, I do one coat at a time. I also do not like walking on uncured gelcoating. It is actually easier in most cases for me to do one coat at a time. This particular project the customer asked me NOT to put non skid in the gelcoating. They will be applying Kiwi Grip to all the decks once the lower catwalks and upper sections are gelcoated this coming spring.

Adding wax and waiting for it to cure requires that you thoroughly clean and sand 100% of the surface between each coat, if there is any wax or un-sanded areas left they are at risk for failure. It may not fail short term, but long term the chances go up greatly. Not that it can’t be done this way, only that it adds time, additional work and a risk of failure.

This is true and i appreciate you pointing out that it can be done this way,lol I already stated what I do when the gelcoat is cured. I acetone the surface, wash with detergent and scrub brush and then sand the area to prep for additional coats. More work, yes, more conveinent in the conditions I am working sometimes for large areas,yes. I have yet to have a deck fail do to the way I have gel coated decks. Failer do to people not maintaining there boats, like making sure that all joints are sound evey year, thats a different story. Anytime water is allowed to get to the subsurface (plywood) you have the potential for failure.

The other issue, which a pro doing a repair couldn’t get away with due to liability reasons, is in not using a nonskid surface. The first person that slipped and got hurt would soon own everything you have. When applying gel coat with a roller it normally leaves a textured surface, but there normally isn’t any tooth to it, the grip is OK when dry, but can become very slick if wet, add fuel, moss, slime, a spilled drink, rain, etc, and you have a surface that can be as slick as ice.

I agree that you always have liability concerns,But saying that someone will own everything you have is simply not the case. It is why I have a limited liability company , insurance, and the contracts I right up cover every little detail of work proposed on a particular job. Including change orders signed by the client in the case that they want to wait to do a non skid coating to the surface that we are repairing when it is a walked on surface. Yes without some sort of non skid , the decks will be slick.

Don’t take this in the wrong way, I’m not trying to slam you, a person can use any methods they please on their own boat, and it appears you did very good job on the deck in the pics. But when you are doing work for other people, plus recommending methods for other people to use, the methods and recommendations require more scrutiny.

Unlike some others, I do my best not to take things personally here, for one, discusions here really have no effect on my daily life. I tell people the way I do things. This may or may not help them. But I won't stand back and agree with someone simply because they don't like my methods or have a different way of doing things. That being said, you will vary rarely find me trying to bash someones work or tell them that there methods suck. If it works for you great.

 

[j_k_bisson]

Re: Regelcoating catwalk and engine covers

I'll chime in here for YD. I have been to his shop and have seen his work. I'll put it this way.... The boatsw he works on don't quite fit into a whole picture. They are rather large. 40' plus......

The one I remember the most was a fresh water 50+' Tiara complete regel. I walk alongside that thing and I could see myself like I was looking into a mirror. No wavyness or distrotions.

He knows..... I've seen it, and will admit that if I need info I will be asking him first. Not saying anthing about anyone esle, but I have seen his work. Could not afford him, but will definately pick his brain for all the free information I can get!

Proshadetree, nice boat. Look forward to seeing this progress thru you project. Good luck!

 

[proshadetree]

Re: Regelcoating catwalk and engine covers

I work in the service industry. I can tell you there is all kinds of correct repairs. I do industrial equipment and can tell you for a fact when someone gets hurt you go to court, your company goes to court, the manufacturer and everyone else they can sue for the chance of getting a penny. Even when we have documentation stating the equipment is unsafe we are still brought in and sued. Way of the world now.
Back to correct repairs it is what the customer pays for and will accept that is correct at the moment.
As I stated before I know YD is a pro. No question in my mind. Ondarvr if he isnt versed in resin and gel bacon isnt breakfast. Chris looks to be doing above average repairs for the area. Look at the pro roof job I found.

Jk I hope you are taking good care of that Baylinner. Good seeing you still around

 

[j_k_bisson]

Re: Regelcoating catwalk and engine covers

Yep I been here all along. Just nothing to say.... I'm into my garage project this year. What did you buy here? You getting into a big project again? Cant keep you still I see.

Well on your project right now you have to be sitting there trying to decide what to do. I would be. These guys are tell you the right way in their minds. And they will work for the products they are sugesting.

I think you need to figure out what you want out the boat/repair.

If you are keep the boat for a long time, do it the right way (YD's), But for the average buy like you and me, we both know we are getting into a major project. This is because our standards for things we keep are high.

If you are keep the boat for a couple of years then selling it, I wound do the coat/paint the ply with resin and one layer of 1708 after gluing with 5200 two sheets of 3/4" ply thick and building the structure. Smoth it out best you can the roll what ever is in your price rang. Its seal and solid. So long as it is not slipery and overly abrasive it works. If you wont have it when the products life is exceeded then who cares?

I'm find as I get older that my personal labour is getting more costlier to me as I age. I find that I tend to over do thing when I'm into projects that no one will ever realy care about or see half the time. I find that unless it is my baby, the Bayliner, then it is good enough. Need to draw the line some times.

This Maybe one of those cases, may not. Tell us and we help you either way. I know I for one will. That is if I can.

Not to highjack this thread, but I am interested in the aspects of all the different ways of doing fiberglassing. From the process of manufacturing with it, to the aspects of the strength to mix ratios and even in the chemical elements of how it all works. In my mind every one here in this thread is right for there way of doing things. It's all based on the out come they expect in the end. I would love to see some one start a thread that talks about there methods of doing things along with the explaination of how, what and why. I don't know anything about this stuff other than what I learn from all you guys. SO please don't fight, The talk about and teach us what you are trying to convey. There are those of use who would like to learn. Hell I would love to know how they build them wood epoxy finish boats. That hobby could be up my ally!

Sorry about the rant. Just be drinking and mudding the garage. Going to bed.

And hope this helps!.... LOL :facepalm:

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Regelcoating catwalk and engine covers

One of the biggest problems with the fiberglass industry (composites) is that for decades very little information was passed on from the manufactures and distributors of the products to the end users (fabricators and builders). The products were sold with little or no information supplied with them and if the customer didn?t ask questions it was assumed they knew how to use the products correctly. Another problem is that polyester resins and gel coats are can appear to be very user friendly and almost idiot proof, you can vary the amount of catalyst a great deal, thin them, use them in high and low temperatures, on poorly prepped surfaces, etc, and still build what looks like an excellent product when it goes out the door.

What many companies find out the hard way is that polyesters can be very affected by all of these variables and that years (maybe sooner) down the road problems start showing up in the products or repairs they made. At that point they start asking questions about what may be going wrong, this is when I normally get involved. When I was doing only technical service I would visit a plant and stay there for one or two weeks observing production, asking questions and checking shop conditions. I would typically find many areas where things could be improved or changed for better results. The most common reply when a fabricator is told they are using a product incorrectly is ?we have been doing it this way for 30 years and it has never been a problem?. It can be difficult to explain without offending them, hurting their feelings or pride, getting someone in trouble, etc, is that yes, these problems are directly related to how you are using the product, or the shop conditions. And that while most of the product they build does look OK, the defects and failures are direct results of what they think are acceptable or correct practices.

I always try to give the ?correct way to do it answer? or at least the method that will more reliably result in a good outcome. Is it the only way to do it?no?will other methods work?yes, maybe, and some or most of the time they could, but most of the time isn?t what you should be looking for.

I have said this before. After working in the industry daily for 25 years I thought I knew a great deal about the products and how to use them. It wasn?t until I went to work for companies that actually did R&D, formulated, tested and manufactured these products (polyester resin and gel coats) that I found out how little I knew about how they were designed to be used. I still learn new things every day about these products.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: Regelcoating catwalk and engine covers

YD, since you think everyone elses jobs are such crap, why don't you post up some pics of some houseboat decks that you have completed.

I never said that CC.

To me, you are a valuable contributor here, If you want to give professional advice on your methods, go ahead

Yes CC..that is my reason to be on Iboats. I Give my personal advice,methods and materials for the benefit of all members here from MY perspective as a professional. Please do not let anything I say or suggest offend you.

But trying to say everyone elses methods are wrong and there work is crap and it won't last just is you being big headed my almighty professional.

Other then what I have stated in my Sig ("All Information or advice given by ME is from a Professional point of view and does not discount other methods by other members of Iboats.")

I have in several threads Refused to give help because of the nature of the repair ( It could, would not be responsible of me to try to help without hands on )

If you are offended by my trying to help the DIY'ers to get the Best results with the least amount of time and experience/materials/tools .. then you mistake my presents here..

I am Very good at what I do ..

Again.. I would suggest before we go all half cocked and suggesting Anything that we need to SEE the Project AT HAND !! That means to see ( pics and info ) Everything about the Project before we as a Group start Spouting off Recommendations and pics and how this works and that works.

I will Always give my opinion (non-jaded) .. that means if someone asks for an opinion on " hows my FG lam look to you " .. you have 45 responses saying " Looking good " and one response saying " Um..gonna have to grind and reglass " .. thats me .. the Only one saying to reglass because its in my opinion that it should.

Does it matter what I say .. yea.. probably .. does it matter if the other 45 say "looks good" .. yea probably..

IMHO it matters what I say on the Forums .. I feel responsible to give advice as best I can.

YD.

 

[proshadetree]

Re: Regelcoating catwalk and engine covers

This is some of the spots I found. What caused this as the roof if coated with the exact same materials but in great shape.
Next what is the best method to fix it?
I value all outlooks and opinions.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Regelcoating catwalk and engine covers

Is it gel coat or paint, or can you tell?

Either way the coating needs to be sanded off completely and the surface under it needs to be sanded thoroughly.

At this point it really doesn't matter why it failed.