Starmada Testing Laboratories

[TundraRocks]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

PFD material has been taken out and is under water. I'll check it in 8 hours. The material has a similar consistency and feel to that of a pool noodle. I do not have one to compare to though, nor do I know if they are the made of the same material.

 

[North Beach]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

Whelp - I am an engineer - :facepalm: - and I develop products with foam !!

Here is the ugly truth - all foam - EPS, Noodles, EXP, PolyIso, Poured.....will turn into a saturated gob of goo very similar in density to actual water - if - if - it is put in an environment of constant water. The water will wick into the voids eventually if left in continuous contact with H2O.
I would suggest that all renovators/restorers/starmadians when putting floatation in - maintain water evacuation channels out of your tinnie - and pull the plug for the drive home.

Nobody likes a soggy bottom!!

ok I gotta weigh in here folks. We've talked about this flotation thing before and I have to agree with Clark. But I feel the need to add that the eps (expanded, white bead) insulation will absorb about one gazillion times it's original weight if subjected to water AND heat...Now how many of you folks ever tried walking around barefooted in your boat in the middle of July?? The extruded (closed cell/pink/blue) stuff is waaayyy better for repelling moisture.

Then we have the empty water bottle bunch.... anyone ever see what happens to the air in a water bottle if you leave it in your car in the winter?? Gone is what happens.

I'm still out on the pool noodles. Just seems like you lose a lot of structural support for the floor and sound dampening using those things. I'm not against them, I just dont get it. You can fill 100 percent of the area below the deck and still have channels for drainage with the extruded (blue/pink) polystyrene so why not just use it?

And there's already a testing technique for water absorbtion of insulation. It's called gravimetric testing. But first you need to replicate the conditions in your bilge for about 5 years. Heat/cold/water over and over. Then you weigh the insulation, then dry it and weigh it again. Then do the calculations for percentage of moisture by weight and check that against the published percentage of moisture by weight when the insulation was new.

 

[64osby]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

Nice work GA - For sake of argument 1 - 2" noodle will float 10lbs, ( might not be on the surface but won't sink) that means my boat which weighs about 1400lbs (motor & boat) needs 140+ noodles to keep it off the bottom.

 

[starcrafter65]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

Nice work GA - For sake of argument 1 - 2" noodle will float 10lbs, ( might not be on the surface but won't sink) that means my boat which weighs about 1400lbs (motor & boat) needs 140+ noodles to keep it off the bottom.

Actually - you are better than that - Once your boat gets underwater its weight is reduced by the amount of water it has displaced.

Water is 62 lbs per foot*3 - Aluminum is 167 lbs per foot*3.....so under water your boat actually "weighs" about 60 percent of itself in air....of course your motor, radio, cupholders, fire extinguisher, seats...blah blah blah

 

[GA_Boater]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

This isn't the first unfortunate test result for noodles. I'm no longer much of a proponent of them. I believe the extruded foam board performs much better. It would be great if GA_B could duplicate his test with some board pieces. I think foam board under the deck and also behind the side panels and perhaps even under the gunnels would be the about the best one could do when restoring a tinny apart from pourable foam filling everything which I want no parts of.

I have some left over foam. I think to be valid I need to figure out the volume of a noodle and duplicate with the same volume in foam. Didn't jigngrub do somewhere. I have to search the forums or start plugging numbers in a calculator or spreadsheet.

Why dont we just test a boat?

Back it into the lake and float if off the trailer but leave it over the submerged trailer then put the bilge pump on the outside of the boat for a while. If it sinks it should rest back on the trailer. Slowly pull the boat and trailer out as it drains. I'd take the engine and other pricey things off first and replace them with weight. A nearly completed boat would be a better candidate. Can we test somehow with a glasser? Then if all fails there is no loss.

I wouldn't advise trying this at a busy ramp.

MP - I'm glad you weren't volunteering your Chieftain. Yeah - A side trip to the ramp while on the path to glasser Nirvana or as we call it the dump! To really test this would take four identical equal weight boats using no flotation, noodles, Pink Panther and pour in. Maybe five, one with wet flotation as the control. I don't think it's gonna happen.

I know a lot of us use noodles for flotation. But in my eyes here's the rub, given the shape you can't get enough noodles under a floor to match the volume of material - either pour in or sheets. But it's better than nothing.

 

[ezmobee]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

Actually - you are better than that - Once your boat gets underwater its weight is reduced by the amount of water it has displaced.

Water is 62 lbs per foot*3 - Aluminum is 167 lbs per foot*3.....so under water your boat actually "weighs" about 60 percent of itself in air....of course your motor, radio, cupholders, fire extinguisher, seats...blah blah blah

That + not everything in your boat doesn't already float

 

[ezmobee]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

so why not just use it?

Just playing devil's advocate (since I've already admitted my lost favor of noodles) but the pink foam can be a big mess to cut/fit and it also can squeak if not well secured.

 

[dozerII]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

This a great thread nothing like testing using the TLAR method. I'm still working on a hot wire method of cutting foam that won't break the bank and is easy to build and use. I agree EZ cutting foam with a saw is terrible, trying to get all those little bits off your hands and arms, is like watching a little kid shake off that little booger thats stuck to his finger.
Glen

 

[jbcurt00]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

I'm still working on a hot wire method of cutting foam that won't break the bank and is easy to build and use.
Glen

One of these 2 threads might help finishing your hot wire cutter:

#1

#2

Have a great middle of the week..................

 

[North Beach]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

Just playing devil's advocate (since I've already admitted my lost favor of noodles) but the pink foam can be a big mess to cut/fit and it also can squeak if not well secured.

You're right there E. I had much better luck using a razor knife on the thin stuff. Plus I understand it is quite expensive.....

 

[DirtyHarry83]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

I am really enjoying this thread. Again. the passing of ideas and discussion is great.

Even with the results. I am still going noodles in the hull. I don't want the costs to skyrocket, I don't want the squeaking and I don't want water absorption. I trailer my boat mostly so a dry hull shouldn't be an issue anyway.

I would put my trust into the noodle float, to add to that though I don't plan on running the boat in places where small craft advisories become an apparent. The best tip to remember about boating is know where you're going, and what is the water and weather information for that trip. Also to be sure to know what the boat is capable of and it's limitations.

I guess what I am trying to say is avoid the situations as best as possible that would cause the use of your internal flotation. Hopefully no one here will need to rely on it ever.

 

[lakelover]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

I guess what I am trying to say is avoid the situations as best as possible that would cause the use of your internal flotation.

I try to do that but am paranoid. I could hit a submerged object or who knows what. And water is often colder than you might think. And I'd rather recover my boat partially submerged than from the bottom. That could be majorly expensive. You never know what might happen - several years ago here, a sheriff's deputy who taught a NY safe boating course that one of my sons took, ran over a rowing scull and severely injured several kids. Tragic. Not that it has anything to do with flotation, but with boating you maximize your safety as much as you can.

So my philosophy is "Hope She Floats"!

 

[TundraRocks]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

The results of the foam from the PFD were that of just surface water dripping off. I was unable to wring any water from the foam after 8 hours of soaking. Not that I would want to be in the water that long, but glad to know that I would still be floating. I'll return the foam to the water and let it soak for 24 hours. I'll weigh a dry piece and one that has soaked for 24 hours.

 

[TundraRocks]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

Anybody know if the pink, green, or blue sheet board foam weighs any more or less than the pool noodle? I would be interested seeing the same test that was done with a pool noodle, done with the sheet board foam of the same weight.

 

[barato2]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

po folks' hot wire cutter: push button start propane torch + old butcher knife. heat, cut, repeat. did all the insulation for our cabin this way. zero mess.

 

[DirtyHarry83]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

Okay

With the debate on boats and floats!
I decided to do some further research on how much flotation is really required to float our boats.
http://www.glen-l.com/weblettr/webletters-7/wl55-flotation.html

HOW TO FIGURE FOAM FLOTATION VOLUME

A simple series of calculations or the use of a pocket calculator can determine the volume of foam flotation required to provide flotation capabilities to an object. The terms used for these calculations are as follows:
W = Weight in lbs. of object in air
S = Specific gravity of object
PB = Portion of weight in lbs. with positive buoyancy
NB = Portion of weight in lbs. With negative buoyancy
F = Flotation value of foam in lbs. per cubic foot

STEP l: Determine the weight and specific gravity (*) of the boat and the items inside (see chart for specific gravity of common materials, or use any engineering handbook).

(*) Specific gravity means the ratio of mass of an object to that of an equal volume of water. For example, a cubic foot of solid fiberglass weighs about 115 lbs., while a cubic foot of salt water weighs about 64 lbs. Thus, 115 lbs. ? 64 = 1.8 Specific Gravity. In other words, the fiberglass is 1.8 times HEAVIER than salt water. Any object with a specific gravity OVER 1.0 will NOT float; it will have negative buoyancy. Any object with a specific gravity LESS than 1.0 will float, while an object having a specific gravity of 1.0 will float awash, or have neutral buoyancy.

STEP 2: Figure the weight of the object when totally immersed in water /this provides the quantity PB, or that portion of the object that has flotation capabilities). For example:
W ? S = PB
(If PB equals or exceeds W, the object will float. Subtracting W from PB will indicate the amount of POSITIVE flotation value in lbs. Which the object contains; no flotation material is required for this object in theory).

STEP 3: If PB is LESS than W, determine the negative buoyancy (NB) of the object, or:
W - PB = NB

STEP 4: Determine the volume of flotation material required, or:
NB ? F = Volume of foam flotation material in cubic feet.

Note: As a factor of safety (call it "FS"), it is common to multiply the result by 1.33, and use this total for the actual amount of foam used.

If a pocket calculator is available, these steps can be transposed into the following algebraic key steps, or:
- W Div S + W = Div F = X F.S. = (**)

Note that the letter-designated keys refer to variables which must be entered; not actual keys.
(** ) If the total is a MINUS number, this shows a reserve of flotation volume over and above that required for flotation purposes. If the total is ZERO, it means that buoyancy will be neutral.

EXAMPLE: Assume a 1500 lb. hull made from solid fiberglass. A foam will be considered for flotation purposes capable of supporting 60 lbs. per cubic foot. Thus, using a calculator:
-1500 = 1.8 + 1500 = 667 = 60 = 11.11 cu. ft. x 1.33 (factor of safety; applies in ALL cases) = 14.78 cu. ft. of foam required to support the hull only.

Specific Gravity of Some Common Materials
(Approximate values in salt water. For calculations in fresh water, increase values by about 2 1/2%.)
Aluminum 2.6
Bronze 8.0
Concrete 2.25
Fiberglass 1.5/1.8
Douglas-fir .5
Gasoline .72
Glass 2.5
Iron (cast) 7.0
Lead 11.0
Mahogany .6
Man 1.1*
Oak (white) .8
Oil .83
Spruce (Sitka) .42
Steel 7.8
Teak .83
* For people, it is common to provide 1/3 cubic foot of foam assuming 150-200 lb. person when they are immersed to keep them afloat.

I found the example pretty good and I know it's for fiberglass but Aluminum is also listed. I'll take a wack at the formula when I get some more time. Hopefully one of you engineer's beat me to it and save me some time...

 

[lakelover]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

If we could just get rid of that steel, iron, lead, aluminum - we'd be in good shape! Thanks again for putting all this in one thread!

 

[jasoutside]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

A simple series of calculations or the use of a pocket calculator

I was a gonner when I couldn't find that darn pocket calculator. No way I would have made it though all the rest

 

[North Beach]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

I am really enjoying this thread. Again. the passing of ideas and discussion is great.

Even with the results. I am still going noodles in the hull. I don't want the costs to skyrocket, I don't want the squeaking and I don't want water absorption. I trailer my boat mostly so a dry hull shouldn't be an issue anyway.

I would put my trust into the noodle float, to add to that though I don't plan on running the boat in places where small craft advisories become an apparent. The best tip to remember about boating is know where you're going, and what is the water and weather information for that trip. Also to be sure to know what the boat is capable of and it's limitations.

I guess what I am trying to say is avoid the situations as best as possible that would cause the use of your internal flotation. Hopefully no one here will need to rely on it ever.

Plan for the worst-Hope for the best......

 

[barato2]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

avoid the situations as best as possible that would cause the use of your internal flotation
you mean, like stay home and watch fishing on TV instead?

your attitude is fine if you don't ever plan on going on anything bigger than farm ponds, or ever taking passengers, or going anywhere there are other craft. and be sure to warn any prospective passengers or future buyers that they're heading out in a boat that will sink in a hurry.

at worst, put EPS back into it if your boat will always be on a trailer and covered. that stuff can be had for free so no Q of skyrocketing costs. not ideal but beats the heck out of nothing at all. and if you're worried about noise, a tin boat may not be the best choice.

sorry, i don't mean to sound critical but safety is not something to skimp on. enough pink foam to fill your underfloor is likely <$50.....we think you're worth at least that much.