Steering whip around question?

[Expidia]

Re: Steering whip around question?

Exactly. I had a severe jerk to the right and adjusted the trim tab either direction to staighten it up at first. It helped but not enough. Eventually, my steering box gears gave up on me (old boat & had sat forever) and I replaced the box with an AFB one which worked with my old cables fine. Problem solved. If it does slip with antifeedback steering it will only slip a degree and then will lock up. Great Product

Also, If your anti cavitation plate is too big this can cause severe steering probs too. GL

Thx. I see iBoats sells the Teleflex units too. I emailed Teleflex to see if they list a unit for my model. It goes by steering cable length I think but it's under a foot of snow right now. I think they should be able to come up with number of the kit I need.

This probably would not be an issue with a heavy fiberglass rig. I think it's a factor of how light my model is and the 40 hp on it.

It just feels like it's a steering issue to me that once the outboard passes a certain angle there is not enough dampening effect or friction to prevent it from whipping around without holding onto the wheel solidly.

Seems to happen more often when I'm pouring wine from a bottle with one hand and holding my cup with the other hand while doing 35 mph in a slight chop .

Just kidding . . .

 

[Expidia]

Re: Steering whip around question?

Followup- good news, found out from the documentation that came with my boat that I already had Teleflex steering. I was re-installing my radio for the season and happened to notice the words Teleflex printed along the steering cable so I hunted around for the docs that came with the boat to verify.

This means for me to add no feedback steering I don't have to replace the cable. I would have hated to do this because this is a big black very inflexible cable to have to re-run a new one in it's place.

I spoke to Teleflex C/S today again and he said the no feedback locking feature will help my whip around issue and all I need to order now is a new bezel and the unit that mounts behind the wheel without having to make any modifications. Prices vary greatly with a google search. Finally f
ound the parts came to $162 including the $11 for shipping from some online website.

I'm still going to drop the motor down one hole because now I think it's a tad too high. I should have not gone up 2 holes the first time in tweaking the outboard's position trying to eliminate the rooster spray off the cavitaion plate due to my dealer mounting the outboard too low.

I think the motor being too high is adding to the whip around. Plus the max hp rating on a light aluminum boat compounds the issue.

So I'll drop one hole and add no feedback steering. The few times the boats done this really scared me because the force of the whip around could throw one of us right out of the boat.

The locking gears in the new steering unit should help.
Once I install it next week, probably won't get a chance to test it out until mid April though. It's 32 here today .

 

[DRIFTER_016]

Re: Steering whip around question?

when you gun the motor nothing is going to stop the engine torque, except holding the wheel, you have the torque of the prob, and the flywheel & crankshaft.

The NFB helm will eliminate the torque steer problem on launch as well as the boat turning right while idling/trolling along.
Any outboard powered boat I have ever driven has torque steered on hole shot, but once up on plane and trimmed out they're fine.
I replaced the helm on my boat last year with an NFB unit and can now mess with my downriggers without doing circles. The NFB units do make it a little more work to turn due to the clutch but all in all not a bad trade off.

 

[Expidia]

Re: Steering whip around question?

The NFB helm will eliminate the torque steer problem on launch as well as the boat turning right while idling/trolling along.
Any outboard powered boat I have ever driven has torque steered on hole shot, but once up on plane and trimmed out they're fine.
I replaced the helm on my boat last year with an NFB unit and can now mess with my downriggers without doing circles. The NFB units do make it a little more work to turn due to the clutch but all in all not a bad trade off.

Ya, That's a good point. I can't wait! Even when I'm cruising it depends on the speed I'm going. Certain speeds the boat will cruise straight all day, but most speeds I get that constant wheel pull to one side from the torgue effect.

If I'm trolling with the downrigger at 1-2 mph if I let go of the wheel the boat will slowly move towards going in circles.

I figured the clutch was going to make it a little harder to steer, but I'll get used to it for the trade off.

One nice thing is I've already had the whole steering assembly apart already when I had to disassemble it last season to get to a space behind the left side of the dash so I could install my battery condition gauge. Just a bunch of bolts to remove and no mods nesscessary. Once the unit comes all I need to do is feed the old cable through it.

 

[Expidia]

Re: Steering whip around question?

How about NFB (no feedback) steering? I haven't used one, but bought a NFB steering system for my project as I didn't want to deal with torque steer anymore. It sounds like it might resolve your problem as when you're not steering the helm is locked, then when you turn the wheel it unlocks a clutch allowing you to steer.

Slowing down might solve your problem also, part of learning your boat, how it handles and what you can do with it. Each boat I've owned has had it's own characteristics and things it didn't like doing,,, or made it known that you shouldn't be doing,,, what you are doing. I borrowed my buddies 12' Lund and 25HP outboard once, flatout hauling azz and caught the wake from another boat caused the boat to make an immediate 90* turn I learned quick that, that boat couldn't cross a wake at full speed...

NFB kit came today, nice part is I already had Teleflex for the helm and cable. So all I needed was the Telefex NFB helm and a new NFB bezel kit. Came to about $147 with $11 shipping and for the better model yet.

No mods needed. I just remove the cable from the old helm and switch the units and feed the end of the old cable into the NFB and tighten 3 bolts that hold the cable in place.

This sucker is beefy. It's 8 lbs. I hope I don't list to Starboard when I'm alone!

What you described when you borrowed your friends Lund is exactly what has happened to me 3 times already. Imagine what happened to you and if you had the 40 hp on it

I'll lower the outboard 1 hole at the same time cause I went up two the first time to eliminate cavitation plate spray. It worked but the combination of the high lightweight hp outboard on this small aluminum boat with it's particular hull design I think adds to the whip around issue.

I'll report back after I install it and get it down to the river for a test run.
Each morning lately it starts at 21 degrees around here.

I first need a little warmth weather wise to make the changes. probably this weekend.

To the poster that suggested to wear a kill switch lanyard . . . absolutely. If I was standing the first time it happened and I could have easily been ejected in the air and 10 feet from the boat. Then run over by the prop as the boat turned in circles.

To the poster in another thread that said the cause is the bow is trimmed down to low on acceleration, it does it when the bow is all the way up when the outboard is trimmed all the way out too. I can start from a hole shot in either trim position because the O/B is the max hp rating for the boat. Pops to plane in a few feet from any trim position.

And to the suggestion that the tab is not adjusted correctly, I've tried it in many positions. The boat steers straight most of the time. i might get a little torque pull to the right at low speeds from the rotation of the prop but I can cruise for miles without touching the wheel at planning speeds.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Steering whip around question?

Gary -- the tab is adjustable in one direction only because engine torque affects steering in one direction -- not both. Look at the tab and you will see even it is designed directionally.


Expedia -- As for this handling issue, each time you describe the problem you are countering your own ideas on what's happening. You say the boat tracks straight and doesn't whip under normal operation. You've adjusted the tab and it still happens. You then say it ONLY happens when you don't grip the wheel tight enough. And then you suggest that the steering needs a dampener. A 14 or 15 foot boat in rough water upon full throttle application can spin quickly if you are angled into the waves. That is not a problem with the boat, it is an angle of attack issue. You also said it happens when you are alone. That almost guarantees that the bow is light and again would be very sensitive to wave action and angle of attack. This condition would be aggrevated even more if you happened to be trimmed out when you throttled up. Having the engine turned one direction or the other when you throttle up under these conditions can also contribute to the problem. My feeling is that this is a combination of operational issues.

 

[Expidia]

Re: Steering whip around question?

Thanks for your reply. I've had a poster suggest just the opposite as that the bow is too heavy (low) which is the one that I would lean towards. But like you say it could happen when its too light too.

either way I've had it happen in both trim positions.

It was another poster that said he hit a "wave" and the boat whipped around. mine has been under acceleration into a slight chop. Not waves from my recollection.

I'm sure the NFB steering unit will help if not cure the issue because it's like I said if I don't have a tight grip on the wheel when it happens the wheel will spin very quickly.

The ratchet lock system on NFB my guess is will resolve this. If not I'll swap it back out and return it. It's only going to cost me the postage cause I'm doing it myself. To use a dealer it would cost me at least $500 and I wouldn't get the labor in and out back.

 

[Expidia]

Re: Steering whip around question?

OK, got home at 3pm today and it was 55 degrees so I attacked the NSB installation.

I could have saved $22 since the new plastic bezel and bracket I was told to order with the helm unit is the exact same piece that was already on my boat since it is the Teleflex Safety Quick unit. The only diff is one says no feedback steering imprinted on it and the old one says Safety Quick.

Oh well, it might increase the resale value, so I used the new bezel that says No feedback steering rather than return it.

So the old helm unit is the exact same size as the new NSB unit. Installation was a snap. I did have to call Teleflex C/S as I could not get the old cable out of the old unit. They answered right away and he told me there is a hole that you stick a pointed object in and it releases the collar. It popped right out while I still had him on the phone. I just followed the directions that came with it as to feeding the cable in while turning the wheel and I was done in a few more minutes.

He also gave me some other installation tips like keep the exposed cable end covered with a grocery store bag until you feed it in so it does not get any dirt on it. Lastly, after the installation is done to disconnect the other end of the cable from the outboard and pull out the cable out of the outboard "every year" and clean the inside of the tube, grease the cable with a good lithium grease and slide it back into the tube. I would not have thought this necessary since there is a grease fitting on the tube, but I figure they make the cable and they should know how best to prolong it's life.

Now I can't wait to test drive it on the water!

 

[Expidia]

Re: Steering whip around question?

Hey Now . . . First day on the water with my new no feed back steering installed.

Put the boat in, plug in, hold down straps off . . . motor started first turn and purrred like a kitten. Warmed it up while I put some stuff away in the lockers and got behind the wheel to leave the bay and . . . . .

I couldn't believe it. I couldn't keep the boat on a straight line. I started going in circles. I'm going "what the Hell is going on here"????

Finally I figured out that to go right I had to turn the wheel left and visa versa

I knew it had to be something with my NFB steering. But I figured maybe they sent me the wrong unit. Then I figured, that can't be right because even if my boat was in England the steering might be on the other side but the wheel would still turn in the same direction

So I thought about it and realized even though I pulled the old steering cable out of the lower hole I guess now I didn't.

It actually had me thinking a little when I installed it that I wondered why the plastic extension tube that the cable exits out of because it's a rotary unit the excess cable feeds out the side into a plastic tube to keep it clean until you turn the wheel the other way it pulls it back in. It has two hold down bolts on the plastic tube hole and and the main jacket part of the cable only had one hold down bolt. . . . I thought that was odd and now I know why, yep . . . fed the cable through the wrong hole.

So I was still able to drive it today but had to think opposite the whole time while steering. Now I know what it feels like to be dyslectic.

Now I have to just pull those 3 bolts out and re-thread the steering cable through the upper hole. No biggy to do but one would think their design would not even allow for reversing the cables direction by using the wrong hole. The bolts lock it in place well in either hole, but I would have thought they would have made the connections different, so you couldn't mix them up.

I know now what happened. I dropped the whole unit first from behind the dash so I had more room to work the cable out. It had a unique locking device where you had to stick a pointed object through a little hole to release the cable jacket from the unit. I had to call Teleflex's C/S to find out how to release it rather than break it by accident. So when it was out on the floor it was actually upside down, so it looked like the cable entered the bottom hole, but it was really the top one :redface:

I had the directions in front of me too with the pictures even, but my radio is in the top area behind my dash, so I figured it had to be the bottom hole . . . who knew??? I also thought it strange that the radio when I put it back in after I finished was a tighter fit, even though the new NFB unit was the exact same dimensions as the one it replaced?

Oh well, gives me a little something to do this weekend

And as others have commented with regard to NFB steering it definitely causes you to use more force to turn it as it has more friction in order to turn it. This is not like you're driving your car with your elbow on the window sill and using two fingers on the wheel to leisurely steer it. Nope, it takes some effort now, but I can live with that because it took me effort with the standard steering just to keep it on track besides having those episodes of the whole boat whipping around.
If it only solved that I'd be happy. You will know me if I go by you. I'm the one in the grey Lund with the recently bigger biceps :

 

[Expidia]

Re: Steering whip around question?

Switched the cable into the correct hole. I Knew I was not crazy. The old unit feeds from bottom hole. The new NFB unit feeds from the top hole.

So got it all buttoned up and went to put the radio back in and a problem arose. Now that the heavy unflexible steering cable is in the top hole it cuts right across the back of the radio. I lose 2 inches and that would be a pretty big extender for the faceplate for the radio to stick out from the dash more.

So I swapped back the original Teleflex unit, buttoned it up and called it a day. I'll sell the No Feedback unit on Craigslist.

At least it steers easy again

 

[Ned L]

Re: Steering whip around question?

It is a natural tendancy for ALL outboards to want to 'flop' all the way over to one side or the other (nothing odd about your boat). The looser the steering the more evident it is, the stiffer the steering the less evident it is. When an outboard is pointed straight ahead it is really just sort of 'balanced' there. With the slightest shift to one direction or the other, the outboard's natural tendance is to flop all the way over to that side. It is the friction of the steering system, and your hand on the wheel that keeps it from doing that. It sounds like its just something you need to be aware of with your boat. There may be a bit of a friction adjustment on the outboard itself (in the way the outboard attaches tot he mounting bracket), if you can tighten this up some it may help you out. ---- This is one of the problems with the cable & pulley steering sytems that were used on almost all outboards up until not to many years ago. If the cable brakes, the outboard flops right over to one side with no way to control it, if someone is thrown out of the boat the boat runs over them in circles.

 

[Expidia]

Re: Steering whip around question?

It is a natural tendancy for ALL outboards to want to 'flop' all the way over to one side or the other (nothing odd about your boat). The looser the steering the more evident it is, the stiffer the steering the less evident it is. When an outboard is pointed straight ahead it is really just sort of 'balanced' there. With the slightest shift to one direction or the other, the outboard's natural tendance is to flop all the way over to that side. It is the friction of the steering system, and your hand on the wheel that keeps it from doing that. It sounds like its just something you need to be aware of with your boat. There may be a bit of a friction adjustment on the outboard itself (in the way the outboard attaches tot he mounting bracket), if you can tighten this up some it may help you out. ---- This is one of the problems with the cable & pulley steering sytems that were used on almost all outboards up until not to many years ago. If the cable brakes, the outboard flops right over to one side with no way to control it, if someone is thrown out of the boat the boat runs over them in circles.

Wow Ned, you just hit what I've been trying to find out what was causing this issue. I just discovered it yesterday when I found the friction setting. The dealer had set it (or not bothered to check it) way to loose. That little skeg on the cav plate is there to zero out the effects of the props rotation.



My problem after putting in the NFB steering unit which would eliminate the whip was that the steering cable took a different path and I couldn't get my radio back in. So I swapped the old steering unit back in because it was too much effort to mickey mouse around the radio problem.

And I found the NFB too
stiff anyway. Now that I just located the friction adjustment on the O/B it's like you say it should eliminate 50-75% of my whip issue.

Here is the thread I started to ask about appyling friction to the steering: http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=303556

 

[Ned L]

Re: Steering whip around question?

Good news, hope things get better for you now. (Not good to have steering that you need to work with so much to keep control of.)

 

[Expidia]

Re: Steering whip around question?

Good news, hope things get better for you now. (Not good to have steering that you need to work with so much to keep control of.)

Ya, I'll be re-testing things on fri when I go mon the Hudson River for the day. I already packed a 13 mm wrench to crank down the friction setting bolt. I think that is going to do exactly what I've been trying to correct!

 

[Ned L]

Re: Steering whip around question?

Nice boating on the Hudson, I've been a good number of times all the way from Sandy Hook Bay up to Troy & on, all the way up Lake Champlain. Enjoy!

 

[Expidia]

Re: Steering whip around question?

Nice boating on the Hudson, I've been a good number of times all the way from Sandy Hook Bay up to Troy & on, all the way up Lake Champlain. Enjoy!

We do Champlain for a weekend and Lake George the next week on a Fri or sat and usually end off back on the Hudson on Sunday cause it's so close to our house. This Fri its supposed to be in the high 60's here so we will cruise on down to whats called the "Roundout" in Kingston Harbor.
Once I get my 2nd boat (a 22 footer with a cuddy for overnighters) I want to cruise all the way down the Hudson and out to the statue of liberty. Then out to the long island sound.

Also want to follow Champlain into Canada and out to the St Lawrence seaway through the thousand islands and out to Ontario. Hopefully, I'll find the boat before summer. I'll still keep the Lund in case I tire of the bigger boat after a few seasons. Or if I like the bigger boat, I might give the Lund to my kids. I really like trailering around to lakes I've never been on before. I'm not a hand around at the marina kind of boater. We get bored seeing the same places and people every weekend.

The first few weeks in May the Stripers are running right up to the Troy lock. You can drive over the overpass on Route 90, look down and see 100 boats on the river stripper fishing