synthetic oil

BillP · Mar 16, 2004

Re: synthetic oil

walleyehed, Slow down man and read my message closly. I said IF you decarbon every 250 hours, damage from carbon is about zero. Ok, you say it's bogus warranty info about the TCW rating? Who told you that? Just find any 2s ob MOTOR mfg that will put it in writing that using a non certified TCW oil meets their warranty specifications if damage is caused by the oil. Ask your regional warranty rep to provide it and hear him laugh. I contacted a lawyer about this two years ago on a car motor warranty. The laws are very specific on this...the motor mfgs can spec oil GRADES and CERTIFICATIONS but cannot spec BRANDS. Like I posted before, contact a lawyer if you need someone to explain it in legal terms. There is one exception on TCW and that oil is made FOR and LABELED with the engine manufactures NAME on the container. Would anybody be so dumb to believe an ob motor mfg would put their name on the label and spec oil that wouldn't be ok to use in their own motor? Saying other non TCW oils are the same is a big assumption used by non certified oils (only one company really)to justify their lack of the TCW-III certification. Oh, and Evinrude XD25 is 2003 TCW-III certified...as is the new EVINRUDE FIRST RUN INJECTION OIL by BOMBARDIER. Amsoil doesn't even make the NMMA list as an "non certified outboard oil". Not certified and not even classified as an outboard oil...what is it? Where do you get qualified data to back claims of Amsoil being superior? It's getting funny, just don't tell me to visit the Amsoil web site for details, ok? Oil experts? You do know this right?...the clerk selling oil at Wallmart (or painting cars at the local body shop)is the same guy who is suddenly an oil expert for Amsoil when his dealer's kit arrives. Their web site is their salesman's bible. I'd say refinery engineers & scientists are the bonified experts. They do testing way beyond the capabilities of John Q. Public and blend oils to meet engineering specs. The ob mfgs use those experts to spec oils, not John Q. Public. I think it's funny that a few average boaters (and oil salesmen) believe they know more than the motor mfgs concerning oil. No offense meant but do you really think your empiricle testing is equal to refinery engineers, scientists, ob motor mfgs and ob warranty reps? Amsoil MAY be good oil but they can't back it up with certifications or unbiased testing. It's the same response as always...defensive when someone asks for proof. Baffle with BS instead.

Peace on earth.

OilDude

(my new handle)

ezbtr · Mar 16, 2004

Re: synthetic oil

Originally posted by LubeDude: I fully understand your situation! If the synthetics were, JUST AS GOOD, I wouldnt bother people with using them, Honestly, there is no comparison at all. There isnt one thing that conventional oil will do better than a high quality synthetic, (other than be cheaper) and they really arent in the long run. No need for decarbing, and spark plug replace ment will be much less. There are indeed differences in synthetics also! I beleive that this is what I would like to see you do, just for the people on this forum! Run your tanks down and buy two gallons of the 100% synthetic of your choice. If you can find a local Amsoil dealer, buy the HP Injector oil, Its the best there is and not much more than the Penzoil! Suck out as much of the old oil as you can with a turky baster or something of the sort and put a gallon in each oil tank. Dont worry about a little of the old oil being left, it will mix fine, Start your engines and slowly motor out to the open water and then just run the engines at a moderate speed for a few minutes, 5-10. This allows the synthetic to wash through the engine, then go ahead and hit it and run at whatever speed you normally run, Check out your WOT RPMs and compare. Im sure you know what they run now. I wouldnt be surprised to see a 100-200 RPM increase with the synthetic! Then when you get back to the dock, the next time you start your engines, notice how much they smoke (or dont smoke) compared to before and let us know! If you like what you see, as much oil as you use, you could become a prefured customer and by the Amsoil at wholesale prices and save yourself some serious change.

I hear ya lube, got free case of Amsoil syntheic for my 2 stk 40 Merc, big diff. all most no smoke, same plugs, more mpg and mph. sold.

walleyehed · Mar 17, 2004

Re: synthetic oil

BillP,

Ok, you say it's bogus warranty info about the TCW rating? Who told you that? Just find any 2s ob MOTOR mfg that will put it in writing that using a non certified TCW oil meets their warranty specifications if damage is caused by the oil.

XD-50, and XD-100 are NON TC-W3 rated oils, and yet recommended for injection or premix.....no void of warranty, and J/E doesn't make the oil...

Oh, and Evinrude XD25 is 2003 TCW-III certified...

XD-25 was discontinued almost a year ago......

I think it's funny that a few average boaters (and oil salesmen) believe they know more than the motor mfgs concerning oil. No offense meant but do you really think your empiricle testing is equal to refinery engineers, scientists, ob motor mfgs and ob warranty reps?

I'm far from an average boater, and I rebuild outboard engines for hire....I see what works and what doesn't. I also see what works better than others. The best option for you would be to continue using what you now use. As for those who try the other products, well, they'll be back for more.

Oldsaltydog · Mar 17, 2004

Re: synthetic oil

BillP Thank you for injecting objecivity as well as a scientific approach into this interesting discussion. With the claims and counterclaims flying back and forth, including from mechanics and salesmen, a person learns a great deal in the process. Who knows, eventually we might find some sort of a tangible scientific proof on the subject.

But a consensus? I doubt it.

Yet it's educational and great fun.

james082273 · Mar 17, 2004

Re: synthetic oil

XD25 has been discontinued? When do you think we'll start seeing the XD30 at wally world and academy, etc. since the XD25 is still on the shelves? Is it the same stuff just a new label? Reason I ask is I want to start using this oil in my 40hp tohatsu but it is a pain to clean out my oil injection everytime I change oils. I don't want to start with XD25 and a few months have to start over with the XD30. I don't think gelling is a problem any more with TCW3 but I don't want to take any chances.

walleyehed · Mar 17, 2004

Re: synthetic oil

XD-25, and 30 will be fine together....No problems whatsoever.

snagnever · Mar 17, 2004

Re: synthetic oil

Hi All! Im new to this forum, so I dont want to throw gas on the fire Ive been running Amsoil Series 2000 Synthetic 2-stroke oil at 50:01 in my 73 Mercury I-6 (150 HP) For the last two seasons with no problems and a lot less smoke. Im still running the same plugs, (dont know what the average life span for the plugs are though) no misses and she starts every time. I havent tried the Amsoil Saber oil though. Just my experience with synthetic

nightstalker · Mar 17, 2004

Re: synthetic oil

I love the "fihts" over synthetic versus regular two stroke oil. Let me fan the flames a little more. I use Penzoil Blend (save $) and have experienced improved performance and vertually no smoking at idle or start up. I will probably go to a full synthetic next on my 225 Johnny. Who thinks I'm nuts if I stay with the blend? Stalker

BillP · Mar 17, 2004

Re: synthetic oil

walleyehed, Please keep the facts straight and produce substantial data to back your claims, ok?

While you're at it, which outboard motor companies esteem you as a Factory Trained Certified Tech, AMI grad, BSME, BSCE, BSBA or MBA? nightstalker, This isn't a synthetic vs pet oil fire. I've used synthetic oils in all types of engines since they hit the shelves around 1976. They're ok. I don't use them in my outboards for reason I don't want to debate over but it is corrosion related. My issues are with oils that don't have the TCW certification where TCW is speced to be used. Some oil reps denounce TCW for their own personal gain and due to the fact their product cannot meet TCW certification specs. Unfortunately, some oil reps also give misinformation about warranties. Professionals in the industry know it busts warranties...novices say different. One would think the reps could provide qualified data to support their claims but it turns into a flame war every time.

"Old age and wisdom will always overcome youth and oil advertising trickery".

walleyehed · Mar 18, 2004

Re: synthetic oil

BillP, please clarify what "claims" and "facts" I don't have "straight" so we all understand what info you consider "misinformation".

BillP · Mar 18, 2004

Re: synthetic oil

Why do you continue to skip my direct questions? I answer yours. I get it now...you now have a dealer kit?

1. You claim this: I'm a user as well, and have done MY OWN testing of SEVERAL different brands of oil, and please, you have to understand the reason Amsoil is not TC rated, that reason being it is so far superior to conventional oils, It's not even considered. Where is the proof to support your claim that Amsoil is so "far superior" to TCW-III oil? Where is the testing info? What training do you have to do scientific testing of oil? Exactly what did you test and benchmark against? What analytical lab did you use? Nobody wants to hear what Amsoil tells you in their dealer kit advertising. We want to see impartial testing by credible and qualified sources. We don't want shade tree empirical testing...everyone is qualified to do it that way. In the rest of the world everyone gives higher credibility to certifications. Oils with the TCW-III certification prove they are superior because they DO have the certification. Every one of them say they exceed the rating so being better than the minimums isn't special or exclusive to any oil. 2. You claim this: Running NON-TC-W3 synthetics WILL NOT void your warranty, and is bogus information, period.

Where did you gather that information? How many times do I have to ask? Did you get legal opinion on that or read it on a web site? I already asked for you to post info from motor mfgs to support your claim...so where is it?

I'm getting ADS on this subject.

backdraft · Mar 18, 2004

Re: synthetic oil

Gentlemen, If someone will send me a case of amsoil for free, I will run the heck out of it. I'm not a dealer or salesman. Just a fisherman who knows a plug that's fouled. Sounds like a great idea to me. nevjb

Forktail · Mar 18, 2004

Re: synthetic oil

I've got to side with BillP in most regards. My 2-strokes specify TCW rated oil. Plain and simple, the Amsoil is not TCW rated. So what part of that is so hard to understand? If you don't use the manufacturer's specified oil, your warranty could be denied.

Amsoil is not TC rated, that reason being it is so far superior to conventional oils, It's not even considered.

That is lame. If Amsoil is so much better, then it could, and should, easily meet the TCW rating. TCW ratings are minimum standards the oil must meet. There is no penalty for exceeding the TCW standard, as most TCW rated oils do. Amsoil simply chooses not certify their oil as TCW. So there is no unbiased 3rd party check of their product, and IMO that means Amsoil could contain anything. No thanks. I'll stick with an oil that I know meets the requirements of my outboards. I stick with an oil that's checked by a third party, not in-house.

There isnt one thing that conventional oil will do better than a high quality synthetic

Conventional TCW oils provide more than enough protection for TCW specified outboards. There is no indication otherwise. And there is no indication that there are benefits to running Amsoil. In fact, I wouldn't doubt that some outboards running on conventional oils can be shown to out-live outboards run on Amsoil.

royal purple and do not know there base stock, Im sure it is probably a fine oil. You will be hard pressed to do better than the Amsoil line.

Royal Purple claims their oils outperform Amsoil. From a test I saw done at my local Royal Purple dealer, it is true.

Royal purple is spending a lot of money on advertising and I do not beleive it to be any better at all. Just a lot of hype.

Are you serious? Hype? Amsoil is the king of oil propaganda! King of hype! It's plastered everywhere! Try a search under synthetic oils. You'll get 50 Amsoil hits to every one of Royal Purple's. More stories, tests, independent dealers, and wild claims than Billy Bob's snake oil. Not one of them by a certified organization like API or TCW. No thanks.

XD-50, and XD-100 are NON TC-W3 rated oils, and yet recommended for injection or premix.....no void of warranty, and J/E doesn't make the oil...

Then these non-TCW Johnson/Evinrude oils do not meet the required TCW specifications for my Yamaha 2-strokes. Of course Johnson/Evirude isn't going to void your warranty for using them...they sell the product and they're specifically recommended for some of their outboards (DFI)!

As a Merc. engineer said "Oil Is oil; It's what you add to It that makes the difference. A tcw III rating Is an absolute minimum rating.

Modern quality conventional oils are refined to a level of quality which meet PAO synthetic oils. In fact the API has allowed these conventional oils to be classified as "synthetics". Synthetics have their place. Like high heat and long drain interval situations. Like maybe a DFI 2-stroke where combustion temps are on the edge. But IMO, using them in the average TCW rated outboard is a waist of money. Amsoil isn't some magic oil. If your outboard smokes and eats plugs with a high quality conventional oil, it will do the same with Amsoil. Been there, done that.

walleyehed · Mar 18, 2004

Re: synthetic oil

BillP, and the others that seem to attack whatever it is I say: I have no "special" school experience more than manufacturers schooling, with the exception of being trained on several of Honeywell's turbine aircraft engines through heavy O/H. You would of course find a reason that this has nothing to do with oils, or why synthetic oils are the ONLY oil that will perform in turbines for many reasons. We were an OMC dealer for 27 years, and during the early yrs of this, my Dad was part of OMC's Racing division, and gained some pretty good knowledge through-out this time period. I raced snowmobiles for team Yamaha for 5 years....synthetics only, and they performed so well we use them in our trail sleds as well. XD-50, and XD-100 were not only designed for DFI's, they are HIGHLY recommended for pre-mix in standard 2 strokes. How many years was it before Yamaha even had a TC-W3 oil???? If you will read closely on the back of these so called "bogus" oils, you will see they don't say they meet Manufacturers standards.....they exceed them, and they will not void an engine warranty if used according to label. Didn't mean to fire anyone up about this, and don't want to cause any hard feelings, but I do feel I can give my views from my experiences with different types of oil which covers a large spectrum as a mechanic and operator.

walleyehed · Mar 18, 2004

Re: synthetic oil

Could using AMSOIL motor oil void your new vehicle warranty? Absolutely not. Vehicle manufacturers recommend using motor oils meeting certain grades and American Petroleum Institute service requirements. Whether the motor oil is petroleum based or synthetic will not affect warranty coverage. The manufacturer is required to cover all equipment failures it would normally cover as long as the oil meets the requirements and was not the cause of the failure. AMSOIL exceeds these requirements and has never been deemed the cause of an engines failure. Even so, AMSOIL has its own limited warranty, protecting you even further. In addition, the Federally mandated Magnuson-Moss act states that a manufacturer may not require the use of a specific brand of aftermarket product unless it is provided free of charge.

Only if an oil is determined to be the direct cause of an engine problem can a manufacturer or dealership deny warranty coverage for that specific problem. In this situation the AMSOIL warranty would apply, and the AMSOIL Technical Services Department would assist you in processing your claim and getting your vehicle repaired. That's AMSOIL's pledge to you. AMSOIL Inc. sells millions of gallons of oil per year and warranty claims are a rare occurrence. If you ever have a warranty problem with an automobile manufacturer (or snowmobile, boat, RV, motorcycle, etc...) or dealership, AMSOIL will assist you by analyzing the problem and providing data supporting the fact that repairs should be made under the vehicle manufacturer's warranty. If this does not resolve the problem. AMSOIL will submit a claim with their insurance company and request that an adjuster have the vehicle repaired and pursue legal settlement later if necessary. The fact is there never has been an engine failure attributed to the non-performance of AMSOIL products, and we do not expect there ever will be. If it ever did, both AMSOIL and their insurance company would make certain your problem was resolved.

HP Injector is a precise synthetic formulation that exceeds the lubrication demands of modern two-cycle motors. Today's two-cycle outboard motors operate at higher temperatures and at leaner oil and fuel ratios than older motors. This difficult operating environment requires proper lubrication technology to keep motors running long and strong. HP Injector is a premium lubricant engineered with AMSOIL synthetic base oils and MAXDOSE advanced additives. It contains up to 30 percent more additives than other TC-W3 two-cycle oils for "super clean" operation. And because AMSOIL synthetic oils are more durable, they are perfect for lean mixture operations. In addition, this AMSOIL exclusive product produces low smoke and odor and has low aquatic toxicity properties, making it ideal for boats. HP Injector improves engine life. It prevents deposits that cause ring sticking and ring jacking (carbon build-up behind the ring, forcing it outward), a phenomenon that occurs in modern DFI outboard motors. HP Injector prevents wear. It has excellent lubricity properties and provides a good lubricating oil film, protecting pistons and bearings. HP Injector prevents rust, an important feature where motors are subjected to water. HP Injector provides superior performance in direct fuel injected (DFI), electronic fuel injected (EFI) and carbureted outboard motors, as well as other recreational equipment. Applications HP Injector is recommended for use in all two-cycle outboard motors including, but not limited to, Mercury® EFI & Optimax®, Johnson® and Evinrude® FICHT® and E-TEC, Yamaha® HPDI, Nissan® and Tohatsu® TLDI®, Suzuki®, Mariner® and Force®. Also recommended for use in all two-cycle personal watercraft and jet boats, as well as snowmobiles, motorcycles and ATVs. Use as injection oil or as 50:1 pre-mix (2.6 oz. per U.S. gallon of gas) where NMMA TC-W3 or API TC oils are specified. Compatible with mineral and synthetic TC-W3 type two-cycle oils, however, mixing two-cycle oils should be minimized.

16Pilot · Mar 18, 2004

Re: synthetic oil

can you use Lucas oil stabilzer to help with the sitting for a week problem, and maintain use of full synthectic?

Forktail · Mar 18, 2004

Re: synthetic oil

Walleyehed, that's just what Amsoil says. It's only their recommendation to use the oil...and of course they sell it. How about something from the outboard manufacturers themselves about using a non-TCW rated oil, such as Amsoil? Isn't it kind of scarey that Amsoil quotes laws and tells you what the outboard manufacturer supposidly can and can not do concerning their warranty. They seem a little paranoid about warranty denials to me. If their oil was so good, why would covering an engine failure be such a big issue for them? Other than taking Amsoil's word for it, there's no way of knowing what specifications their oil meets. It's not certified or licensed as a TCW. Their test are done by people they pay, not an independent non-profit organization. There is no 3rd party shelf testing to ensure batch consistency of product. The tests they perform aren't even done in the same laboratory environment as TCW's. The Amsoil hype is a little much for me. I've found the only thing different about it, is that it's way more expensive. My 2-strokes like regular oil just as well.

quantumleap · Mar 19, 2004

Re: synthetic oil

My Mercury/Mariner owners manual says to use a TCW certified oil. Amsoil is not TCW certified. Amsoil says they exceed mfg's specification, yet they don't have their product certified. Something is wrong with this picture. No TCW certification, no use in my motor. End of story.

quantumleap · Mar 19, 2004

Re: synthetic oil

BTW, Is anyone here aware that Amsoil is affiliated with the parent company of Amway, like in cleaning products, like in the king of pyramid marketing, even bigger than MaryKay cosmetics. Sell the people a product by convincing them that it is better than they can buy at a regular store. The price is so high on Amsoil products because all of the people on the pyramid ladder get a share of the sale form your local dealer. American marketing at its finest. Now guys, don't misunderstand me here, I think that Amsoil is a quality product, just WAY over priced and not certified to the standard of the very indusry in which they are competing. (how about a little more fuel for the fire!! hehehe)

james082273 · Mar 19, 2004

Re: synthetic oil

I have never used Amsoil but I have priced the HP Injecter. It is actually cheaper than I can get the 100% synthetic Pennzoil by a $1. But since it is such a pain in the but to call a dealer and have him bring it to me plus the fact that the pennzoil is probably just as good and TCW3 rated I would concider the Pennzoil over the Amsoil if I decide to do the sythetic thing. My .02

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