What fluid do I use in my alpha 1 trim pump?

[joe_nj]

I have an 87 mercruiser with an alpha 1 gen 2 drive ob587...

I have water in the fluid. The shop manual describes 3 pumps, 1 prestolite and 2 oildynes.

The name on the pump is warn off so I can't tell the brand or which of the pumps it is. The prestolite calls for motor oil and the oildynes call for dexron or quicksilver stuff (which is probably dexron.) I don't know which to use because I don't know which brand of pump I have. Any suggestions on how I can identify my pump other than taking it out and showing to a Cobalt service person? (who I wrote to and who didn't respond.)

It has a white plastic reservoir and looks like the one shown in the oildyne / singer photo in the shop manual but the picture of the prestolite and drawing of the other oildyne/Eaton do not show the reservoir so I can't tell by that.

One of you suggested on another site that it doesn't matter whether I use oil or dexron. I'd like to use the recommended fluid though.

This is all because of cream colored milky fluid. I saw the posts on how to check for leaks and purge the system at http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=448327 among other places but first I'd like to know what fluid to use - 10 days before towing my boat to vacation.
Ok, in posting this, the similar threads nicely provided by the search engine said I can use either ATF, Oil, or Quicksilver trim stuff. I'll use the ATF.

 

[Reel Poor]

Re: What fluid do I use in my alpha 1 trim pump?

You should have the Olidyne pump. If quicksilver Power Trim and steering fluid is not available, SAE 10W-30
or 10W-40 engine oil can be used in the system.
Quicksilver Power Trim and Steering Fluid 92-90100A1

 

[achris]

Re: What fluid do I use in my alpha 1 trim pump?

Don't mix the oils... Use ATF ONLY if it already has ATF in it.. If it has 30W oil and you still want to use ATF, then you need to flush out all of the the 30W oil....

BTW... Quicksilver trim and tilt fluid is...... 30W oil...

Chris.......

 

[ktbarrentine]

Re: What fluid do I use in my alpha 1 trim pump?

BTW... Quicksilver trim and tilt fluid is...... 30W oil...

Chris.......

And a tad bit more $$$! Just sayin'

 

[Don S]

Re: What fluid do I use in my alpha 1 trim pump?

One of you suggested on another site that it doesn't matter whether I use oil or dexron. I'd like to use the recommended fluid though.

It doesn't matter which is used, the pumps will run on ATF or engine oil. But, Mercruiser has never used ATF in a trim pump since the late 60's. So why would it have ATF in it instead of engine oil or trim tilt oil ????????

Here is a scan from a 1971 owners manual for a 165 L6 engine. It doesn't say ATF now, does it.

 

[buzzm19]

Re: What fluid do I use in my alpha 1 trim pump?

I love Atf, we have used it for over 40 years-- 30ft scarab twin 454's mercury outboards and now a 26' wellcraft nova 350's, its a natural cleaner and it is better for the seals. Buz

 

[Don S]

Re: What fluid do I use in my alpha 1 trim pump?

I love Atf, we have used it for over 40 years-- 30ft scarab twin 454's mercury outboards and now a 26' wellcraft nova 350's, its a natural cleaner and it is better for the seals. Buz

That has absolutely nothing to do with what should be there. Mercruiser uses engine oil, your outboard use ATF, so?

Better for the seals? You Making this stuff up as you go ????

 

[starwriter]

Re: What fluid do I use in my alpha 1 trim pump?

I can say the difference between ATF & Standard motor oil,
ATF is Transmission fluid for transmissions only.Not for hydraulic cylinders.hydraulic cylinders requires hydraulic fluid.Not motor oil or ATF.ATF is more like a cleaner then a oil.Go ahead use ATF in your trim hydraulic cylinders!That ATF will eat those rubber O-rings & seals all up in little time.Motor oil will not.You can use Motor oil but with less responce time in the trim if so.I see what your all thinking.Your thinking as a power stearing pump on a car.It don't work that way!Sure,you can put anything but water in a power stearing pump.But,people?We aren't talking about just the pump.That pump pumps fluid to hydraulic cylinders not a stearing box like on a car.The power stearing pump & Trim pump arn't the same.Doesn't work the same.As you may be thinking.Your trim cylinders are hydraulic cylinders just like a shop floor jack.Or even snow plow hydraulic cylinders all works the same.Requires hydraulic fluid.I could careless what all your manuals say.Contact any company that deals with hydraulic cylinders.Explain to them your using ATF & Standard motor oil.
Now,let's get back with the original fellow here.He states he has water in his trim oil.And why is that?Well,your ATF & Motor oil thinking caused the water.ATF eat the seals up.Motor oil dried the seals out.Wipe your ATF or your motor oil on your tires on your car?Gives them a nice shine also,Eats that rubber up in no time.Hydraulic cylinders have rubber seals & O-rings."RUBBER"Rubber don't like ATF or motor oil now does it?You can all say : Well,I've used ATF or Motor oil for yrs never had a problem.Time will tell the truth.Why,What's amazing is "And your the experts answering questions ha?This ATF/Motor oil topic you all started explains how far the apple fell.Good Day people.

 

[Reel Poor]

Re: What fluid do I use in my alpha 1 trim pump?

I can say the difference between ATF & Standard motor oil,
ATF is Transmission fluid for transmissions only.Not for hydraulic cylinders.hydraulic cylinders requires hydraulic fluid.Not motor oil or ATF.ATF is more like a cleaner then a oil.Go ahead use ATF in your trim hydraulic cylinders!That ATF will eat those rubber O-rings & seals all up in little time.Motor oil will not.You can use Motor oil but with less responce time in the trim if so.I see what your all thinking.Your thinking as a power stearing pump on a car.It don't work that way!Sure,you can put anything but water in a power stearing pump.But,people?We aren't talking about just the pump.That pump pumps fluid to hydraulic cylinders not a stearing box like on a car.The power stearing pump & Trim pump arn't the same.Doesn't work the same.As you may be thinking.Your trim cylinders are hydraulic cylinders just like a shop floor jack.Or even snow plow hydraulic cylinders all works the same.Requires hydraulic fluid.I could careless what all your manuals say.Contact any company that deals with hydraulic cylinders.Explain to them your using ATF & Standard motor oil.
Now,let's get back with the original fellow here.He states he has water in his trim oil.And why is that?Well,your ATF & Motor oil thinking caused the water.ATF eat the seals up.Motor oil dried the seals out.Wipe your ATF or your motor oil on your tires on your car?Gives them a nice shine also,Eats that rubber up in no time.Hydraulic cylinders have rubber seals & O-rings."RUBBER"Rubber don't like ATF or motor oil now does it?You can all say : Well,I've used ATF or Motor oil for yrs never had a problem.Time will tell the truth.Why,What's amazing is "And your the experts answering questions ha?This ATF/Motor oil topic you all started explains how far the apple fell.Good Day people.

So you don't believe rubber compounds can be designed to be compatible with different types of fluids/liquids? So you know more than the manufacturer of these components and what the manufacturers recommend for fluid.
BTW, the brakes on your vehicle are also hydraulic.....Try using hydraulic fluid in there. Just because "YOU" believe something to be true doesn't make it true.

 

[starwriter]

Re: What fluid do I use in my alpha 1 trim pump?

For one,Brakes are not hydraulic.And how is it that this is going from ATF to now Brake fluid?What's next will you think of?Anti-freeze.
O.k let talk about a brake caliper and a back brake wheel cylinder and how it works.First,a caliper.Takes more preasure/force to stop a 3,000 lbs car then lifting a 200 lbs if that sterndrive.Look at the distance of travel between a caliper piston and a hydraulic trim lift?A caliper only has less then a inch of travel verses a trim shaft of 6-12 inches.Then,verses how often your brake is used over your trim button kne I say more on a caliper?Wheel cylinder is made of two rubbers and a spring.Do I realy need to explain this again?Same as above.I can say the same to you as try your ATF with your calipers.Let me know your findings?As for your thinking of factory oils.Sales is what ever saves money.Also,called recalls as well.If rubber could talk.Contact your manufacturer?Ask them what will happen and why not hydraulic fluid?If you still feel the same?Start shining your tires not with your basic Armral.But,with the oils you are told to use?manufacturer knows your oils you use are no good.They also,know they will have a job next yr as well working on your seals.Take that to the bank?

 

[fishrdan]

Re: What fluid do I use in my alpha 1 trim pump?

For one,Brakes are not hydraulic.

Hydraulic disc brake diagram

For the original question, I would use engine oil and flush it out a couple times to get all the water and funk out of the system.

 

[achris]

Re: What fluid do I use in my alpha 1 trim pump?

...Go ahead use ATF in your trim hydraulic cylinders!That ATF will eat those rubber O-rings & seals all up in little time.....

I think 'happy hour' has come a bit early today... ...

ATF will not eat O-rings... If it did I think there would be a serious problem with all the automatic gearboxes on the road.... How do you think all the valves and pistons inside the gearbox are sealed? If ATF ate O-rings autobox makers would have some serious questions to answer!!!

The first engine I had in the boat was a 165 (inline 6) and the trim system only ever had ATF in it... It was 14 years old when I acquired it, and I had it another 8.... The trim system was about the only thing I didn't have a problem with....

Geez, I've heard some rubbish in my time, but this really does take the cake!!!

Chris...

Edit: One of the reasons we don't use ATF or motor oil in the brakes is due to the boiling point of them... Nothing to do with eating O-rings... :facepalm:

 

[joe_nj]

Re: What fluid do I use in my alpha 1 trim pump?

Thanks for all the information and for letting me know my options. Also, it's a good vigorous debate about the options.

I figured out that I have the Oildyne Singer pump as Reel Poor said after I posted as I found some pictures at http://dc389.4shared.com/doc/oXBm0aUe/preview.html which I also have on my hard drive but forgot.

Achris, I don't know what fluid was in there originally as I've only had the boat a few years and I don't know how long the water was in there. I ran over a floating telephone pole or something like it last time out (after a storm) which passed under the boat and knocked against the outdrive and that may have caused it to leak. I'll check for leaks over the weekend after I finish repairing my boat's deck. The boat now leans left and I'm going to do a separate posting on that with pics. I'd appreciate everyone's comments on that.

The mercruiser shop manual says to use Quiksilver power trim and steering fluid or Dexron if Quiksilver isn't available. It also says this:
IMPORTANT: If quicksilver Power Trim and steering fluid is not available, SAE 10W-30 or 10W-40 engine oil can be used in the system.
I can't tell what's in there because it looks like coffee with a lot of cream. It was previously maintained at a marina so they probably used Quiksilver - on the other hand they also used non-stainless screws so who knows. The consensus here seems to be to use engine oil or quiksilver so that's what I'll do, as Don and others suggest. No matter what I use, I have to flush the whole system out. I don't like paying just for a name, especially since I have to flush it several times. I'll have to compare the prices and your diverse comments and decide. If the Quiksilver stuff isn't too expensive for multiple flushes, I'll use that.

Regarding the debate:
Someone in another post said transmission fluid is SAE20 with dye added. Checking around, I see that this stuff "714 Borg Warner SAE 20 Marine Transmission Fluid" (says it's a substitute for Dexron) seems to verify that.

Achris said that Quiksilver is SAE30 oil. I believe that but why then doesn't mercruiser recommend using SAE 30 instead of 10-30 or 10-40? Maybe it's because it can be harder to find SAE30. My brother who's a mechanic tells me not to mix oils like Achris says. I wonder why the Merc shop manual gives so many different options? It seems to make more sense to use SAE 30 oil to me. I don't know how much difference there is between SAE30 and SAE10-30.

Starwriter, if anyone has read this far, automatic transmissions have o-rings too, right? You're right that not all o-ring materials are compatible with all chemicals. They probably don't use the same materials to make o-rings that they use for making tires or the chemical composition is certainly different. Here's a table of o-ring compatibility with automatic transmission fluid and other fluids. I didn't cross-reference it with motor oils but I bet it's possible for manufacturers to find materials compatible with both.

O-Ring Materials Compatible with Automatic Transmission Fluid
(select a material to show its compatible chemicals)
Aflas (4) Buna-N (Nitrile) (4) Butyl (1)
Chemraz (4) Epichlorohydrin (0) Ethylene-Propylene (1)
Fluorocarbon (4) Fluorosilicone (0) Hypalon (2)
Kalrez (0) Natural Rubber (1) Neoprene (3)
Nitrile, Hydrogenated (4) Polyacrylate (4) Polysulfide (0)
Polyurethane, Cast (0) Polyurethane, Millable (3) Silicone (1)
Styrene Butadiene (1) Teflon, Virgin (4) Vamac (1)

 

[fishrdan]

Re: What fluid do I use in my alpha 1 trim pump?

why then doesn't mercruiser recommend using SAE 30 instead of 10-30 or 10-40?

Probably due to viscosity of the oil in the trim system, 30W oil being too thick. I filled my trim system with 15W40 as I wanted to use the same oil as I was running in the engine. The trim was very sluggish in the winter and I could hear the pump laboring trying to push the heavy(er) oil, and it really doesn't get that cold out here, maybe down the freezing and it doesn't stay there during the day. I flushed it out and refilled with some 10/30 (40?) and it works much better in cold weather.

 

[Don S]

Re: What fluid do I use in my alpha 1 trim pump?

All the Mercruiser service manuals and owners manuals for your year say to use 10W30.
Here is a screen shot from service manual #6.

Now you are basing your argument on one line from Achris that says the T&T fluid is 30W, maybe it is, but maybe there is some other additives in it as well that he didn't mention, which is why they say to use 10W30/40 and not straight weight, and not straight 30W.

I think you are making way more out of this than necessary.

You mentioned in your last post

The mercruiser shop manual says to use Quiksilver power trim and steering fluid or Dexron if Quiksilver isn't available.

Does that manual say Seloc or Clymers on it? If so, neither one is from Mercruser.

One other thing, if you had ATF in your pump, and water mixed in, it would look like a strawberry milk shake. Milky Pink, since you don't have that color, it's oil.

One last note, Volvo also used the same Oildyne pump (different electric motor) for years, and they used and recommend Dexron ATF. So the pump doesn't care which it gets, you just don't want to mix ATF with engine oil.

 

[achris]

Re: What fluid do I use in my alpha 1 trim pump?

Just a couple of last comments.... If the (wet) oil in your system is coffee coloured, it's not ATF.... If it was wet ATF, the colour would be bright pink....

Why don't Merc say just to use engine oil? Money.... If they did, who do you think would buy the Quicksilver branded stuff?
If you intend to use Quicksilver fluid, then for flushing out, just use any cheap thin engine oil... Like 10W-30...

Oh, and the designation of multi-weight oils.... 10W-30 for example... It will act like a 10 weight oil in the cold, and a 30 weight oil when it's hot....

Chris......

 

[achris]

Re: What fluid do I use in my alpha 1 trim pump?

...Now you are basing your argument on one line from Achris that says the T&T fluid is 30W, maybe it is, but maybe there is some other additives in it as well that he didn't mention, which is why they say to use 10W30/40 and not straight weight, and not straight 30W.

Ok... my bad.. I was quoting from memory (from the late 80's), it was 20W not 30W as I originally said... but I was right about it being straight weight oil... This is from page 7A-7, service manual #2... Have a read of line #3....

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: What fluid do I use in my alpha 1 trim pump?

My trim pump base specifically says to fill with SAE30, so that's what I use. Never had an issue with it. The comments from Starwriter are simply amazing with regard to the lack of knowledge on the subject.

 

[Reel Poor]

Re: What fluid do I use in my alpha 1 trim pump?

starwriter your knowledge on the subject of hydraulics and rubber vs fluids is absurd. First off, there are many different rubber compounds designed to work with different fluid chemical compositions. Using rubber components in incompatible fluid environments they were not designed for will cause system failures. Compatibility is determined by chemistry, and no amount of wishful thinking or rationalizing can change the science of chemical compatibility. That was my point with the brakes on your car, they have rubber components also, that are not compatible with petroleum based fluids. Hydraulic fluid, motor oil, and ATF are all petroleum based products. Brake fluids are not petroleum based. Most brake fluids used today are glycol-ether based (DOT 3), but mineral oil and silicone (DOT 5) based fluids are also available (DOT ratings reflect boiling points). If you take any of the brake system rubber components and soak them in hydraulic fluid, or any other petroleum based fluid, they will swell and deteriorate into an almost unrecognisable shape. So to say that hydraulic fluid will not damage rubber components is false. You can't just make things up as you go. BTW, the brakes in your car are a good example of a basic piston-driven hydraulic system. In most other hydraulic systems, hydraulic cylinders and pistons are connected through a series of control valves, hoses, and a high pressure supply pump.