1960's Falcon Rebuild (New Title)

[InMotion]

Re: 1960's Falcon Rebuild (New Title)

Hey Fellas.... ok I could use some help here.... This is a couple of weeks in advance, but I have a couple of ideas how to do this but would love some other ideas/thoughts. So please weigh in with your thoughts.

Premise:

This is what I am doing to the stern of the boat....



Basically, creating a half moon curve --- like a barrelback boat would have. I will have a jack plate for the motor to hang off of. No splashwell as the back 3 feet of the boat or so will be cedar strip.

Issue is that the existing transom metal is a typical outboard setup with the usual U shaped transom.... so my thoughts are:

Option 1:
Cover the transom with cedar to above the water line from edge to edge of the transom. I will have to put some kind of spacer in above the metal to fill the gap above the top of the existing transom top.

The cedar will be coated in 6+ coats of spar to protect it.

Option 2:
Same as Option 1 but use plywood as a backer and cover it laterally with cedar strips and use cedar to strips cut for the bottom and side edges to hide the plywood. Again coat it with 6+ coats of spar to seal it up. Also, again it will be fairly far down the back of the transom, but above the water line. It will no doubt get wet with waves, etc.

Option 3:
Same as 1 but only come down enough to cover the top of the transom --- so total of maybe 4-6 inches from the top of the curve to the bottom of the wood. Nice part is that it will likely stay dry for the most part. Polish the transom and fill in the multitude of holes (like splashwell drain holes) which may not look to good. I could extend it to that level... but would likely have to use option 2 plywood/cedar option to get the wood width necessary to cover that far down.

Option 4:

Suggestions....

That's the issue guys... I've pretty much got the rest worked out to turn this into a wooden boat on top and polished aluminum boat from the gunwales down... but the back is a bit tricky....

Suggestions welcomed...

Thanks fellas!

Jim

 

[Grandad]

Re: 1960's Falcon Rebuild (New Title)

Jim, the silence is cuz we're still thinking this one through. - Grandad

 

[jbcurt00]

Re: 1960's Falcon Rebuild (New Title)

Ok, questions:

How do you plan to address the transom to hull side 'corner'?

Are you only thinking down to the waterline to keep the woodwork out of full immersion?

Have you already sourced the cedar? It may not be the most dimensionally stable choice, esp in a wet environment.

 

[astor]

Re: 1960's Falcon Rebuild (New Title)

You want to reconstruct the rear end to look like the barrel back, then cover the exterior of the boat in cedar strips?

Sort of like the older Feathercrafts. This will be interesting,

 

[dozerII]

Re: 1960's Falcon Rebuild (New Title)

Gandad had it right in his post, I was going to post last night then decided to sleep on it. I'm thinking along the same lines as Astor.
I think the only way to do it is to drill the rivets out of the transom skin and remove it, see what kind of a curve you can induce into the sides keeping the gunwale flat, then make a pattern and have a new aluminum transom cove made. The other problem I have been thinking about is the different expansion rates of the wood and the aluminum maybe causing adhetion problems down the road.

 

[InMotion]

Re: 1960's Falcon Rebuild (New Title)

I kinda figured there might be some silence on this one fellas... but thanks for getting the process going!

Yah.... man it's harder to articulate this one than I thought.... I am not going to barrelback the metal part of the transom. I am just going to create the half circle from the each existing side to change the look from an OB to IB. I figured it would be a tall order and likely not to structurally stable of an idea to pull the rivets out and reshape the rear and stern of the boat...

Issue still is that to create that curve I still have to do this... (rough drawing here folks!)


Lets see if this is a clearer articulation of what I am planning on doing...

Thanks guys.

J.

 

[dozerII]

Re: 1960's Falcon Rebuild (New Title)

I kinda figured there might be some silence on this one fellas... but thanks for getting the process going!

Yah.... man it's harder to articulate this one than I thought.... I am not going to barrelback the metal part of the transom. I am just going to create the half circle from the each existing side to change the look from an OB to IB. I figured it would be a tall order and likely not to structurally stable of an idea to pull the rivets out and reshape the rear and stern of the boat...

Issue still is that to create that curve I still have to do this... (rough drawing here folks!)


Lets see if this is a clearer articulation of what I am planning on doing...

Thanks guys.

J.

Okay Jim, a couple questions?

How far back is the motor going to be offset on the plate?
Is it going to have TNT?

I'm not intending to poop in your Cornflakes so to speak, but unless the motor is way back you won't be able to tilt it up unless you have a recess in the transom under the wood deck.
Also I'm wondering if your going to get the look you are looking for, the boat type you are portraying have a very low butt end that sits low in the water and the hull sort of rises up from there, the design you are proposing will more or less be level from stern to cockpit, instead of that nice gradual rise.
Or am I not following!! I think you will have to go something like this.

 

[InMotion]

Re: 1960's Falcon Rebuild (New Title)

Okay Jim, a couple questions?

How far back is the motor going to be offset on the plate?
Is it going to have TNT?

I'm not intending to poop in your Cornflakes so to speak, but unless the motor is way back you won't be able to tilt it up unless you have a recess in the transom under the wood deck.
Also I'm wondering if your going to get the look you are looking for, the boat type you are portraying have a very low butt end that sits low in the water and the hull sort of rises up from there, the design you are proposing will more or less be level from stern to cockpit, instead of that nice gradual rise.
Or am I not following!! I think you will have to go something like this.

Hey Gle,

Ok that is getting closer... nice boat! Wow! I am going to change the height of the gunwales and bow --- but that's a different story! Not to worry there.... the originals stay in place. But this will offset the small height increase at the back.

The motor won't have tnt.... so you bring up a good point about tilting it up though... I was looking at a 4" offset back. That won't likely be enough to tilt it up much... if at all. Unless I went to a long shaft and the jack plate pieces at the top of the curve. Hmmmmm....

The motor will be bolted to the jack plate that will be a couple --- possible 5-6" lower than the top of the transom curve. I will have to mock it up with the motor (which is on a stand right now) to see how far back it would need to be set to allow it to tilt.

I may have to leave a "hole" so to speak for the motor to tilt into. But even if the motor is on a jack plate 4" back, I believe that the motor when tilted up would hit the transom.... hmmmm

So.... looking at that picture and focusing on the transom, imagine that the motor on a jack plate lower than the top of the wood transom showing in the picture... how can it be tilted and still retain the look? The wood decking has a small splashwell cut out... but imagine that closed in. Is it possible???

J.

 

[dozerII]

Re: 1960's Falcon Rebuild (New Title)

The one thing you can't change Jim is the anti cavitation plate on the motor has to be flush with or an inch above the center of the hull for best performance. This means that what ever you do has to work around where the motor has to sit whether it is on the transom or 4-6"s back the height can't be changed.

 

[jasoutside]

Re: 1960's Falcon Rebuild (New Title)

This is one of those times that I wish we lived closer to one another. It's sometimes hard to do this stuff over a keyboard ya know.

I think it'd be cool if we could all stand around Jim's boat here, drinking some strong coffee, engineering, designing, and solving boat build challenges.

And, if appropriate, hazing anybody who might have chick stuff hanging in his man shed eh!

:canada:

 

[Grandad]

Re: 1960's Falcon Rebuild (New Title)

The transom looks to be designed for a 15" engine. Raising the transom/jack plate height to 20" would help elevate the powerhead perhaps to a point where a conventional well is not required. I suppose you could go even further to a 25" engine, but she'll start looking a little top heavy, particularly if you use a big engine. - Grandad

 

[InMotion]

Re: 1960's Falcon Rebuild (New Title)

The one thing you can't change Jim is the anti cavitation plate on the motor has to be flush with or an inch above the center of the hull for best performance. This means that what ever you do has to work around where the motor has to sit whether it is on the transom or 4-6"s back the height can't be changed.

Agreed. Sticking with the same height as the top of the old transom ---- so setting it back will result in the same relative transom height.

 

[InMotion]

Re: 1960's Falcon Rebuild (New Title)

This is one of those times that I wish we lived closer to one another. It's sometimes hard to do this stuff over a keyboard ya know.

I think it'd be cool if we could all stand around Jim's boat here, drinking some strong coffee, engineering, designing, and solving boat build challenges.

And, if appropriate, hazing anybody who might have chick stuff hanging in his man shed eh!

:canada:

Totally agree!! It would likely take about 2 hrs and 10 minutes.... 2 hrs of drinking ones beverage of choice and 10 minutes to solve the issue!

J.

 

[InMotion]

Re: 1960's Falcon Rebuild (New Title)

The transom looks to be designed for a 15" engine. Raising the transom/jack plate height to 20" would help elevate the powerhead perhaps to a point where a conventional well is not required. I suppose you could go even further to a 25" engine, but she'll start looking a little top heavy, particularly if you use a big engine. - Grandad

Agreed there GD.... gonna stick with the same relative 15" engine as that's what I have..... the jack plate will just move the engine laterally --- I've seem them that will move the engine out from the transom from 4-8+ inches.

I will mock up a template and take some pics for everyone to see and see if it helps to visualize this better for looks and most importantly at this stage functionality.
J.

 

[jbcurt00]

Re: 1960's Falcon Rebuild (New Title)

Ok, working backwards from Glen's posted pix:

You'll need to figure out how much room you NEED to tilt forward. Glen's example appears to have a fairly small cut out on the rear deck, that's possibly just open to the bilge. My Duracraft is sort of like that, no splashwell/tray to catch & drain water if it comes over the transom. Many boats are that way.

It also is only just enough cut out to allow the front lower portion of the cowl to tuck into, NOT the whole power head. Moving the motor BACK on a bracket, may allow it to tilt up some, perhaps enough. Or not. The pictured cut out doesn't look like it runs forward much more then 6" +/-. The transom has been raised 2" +/-, which helped the lower front tuck into a small cut out, and probably will allow the motor to tilt up most, if not all of it's range. I would be worried about kinking the cable that runs out of the front of the motor & thru that black grommet (it looks silver, is that the throttle cable?).


I think you'll make a great looking boat, if you can work out the details. I suspect that many of them will depend on having the boat prepped & the wood on-site and it becomes a trial & error design~build, working out the current detail and changing modifying the plan as needed, at pretty much each change in surface.

The reason I asked about sourcing the cedar & a wet environment is because this will be substantially more wood then the Jupiter has. Each piece needs to be as stable as possible. Having multiple joints (seams) compounds the expansion & contraction across the grain. That's one of the reasons wood boats are typically made out of wood rift or quarter sawn:

Notice the vertical grain in the last 2^^^^^ The wood expands, primarily, across the way the tree grows. The flat sawn will expand mostly across the width of the board. The last 2 will too, but most of the expansion will be across the thickness of the board, not the width.
^^^ make sense? Found another pix:

If I wanted to 'skin' any boat (glass or tin) to look anything like the pix Glenn posted, I'd probaly use Okoume/Sapele/Ribbon Sapele 4mm+/- plywood. It's BS1088 certified, uses waterproof adhesives, it's more stable then solid hardwoods, looks like mahogany/teak and is available in single sided 4X8 sheets.
Ribbon Sapele:

Okoume:

Before shipping, an east cost vendor has 3mm for about $80 per 4X8 sheet.

Still digging the concept!

And agreed, hanging in the garage leaning on the hull would be better. Much better....

 

[jasoutside]

Re: 1960's Falcon Rebuild (New Title)

May I just say that these sweet boats look totally ridiculous with that egg beater on the back there


LONG LIVE THE IO!!!!!


:behindsofa:

 

[kfa4303]

Re: 1960's Falcon Rebuild (New Title)

+1. Great looking boat with a big ol' piece of redneck hanging off the back :/ What a shame. I'm sure it's very fast and reliable, but dang it hurts my eyes and soul to see. Surely there was a nice period correct Javelin of tower of power that could've been used? Clearly money was no object. It looks worse than a ballerina with a boob job, or caviar with ketchup on top. No accounting for taste, I suppose.

 

[InMotion]

Re: 1960's Falcon Rebuild (New Title)

Ok, working backwards from Glen's posted pix:

You'll need to figure out how much room you NEED to tilt forward. Glen's example appears to have a fairly small cut out on the rear deck, that's possibly just open to the bilge. My Duracraft is sort of like that, no splashwell/tray to catch & drain water if it comes over the transom. Many boats are that way.

It also is only just enough cut out to allow the front lower portion of the cowl to tuck into, NOT the whole power head. Moving the motor BACK on a bracket, may allow it to tilt up some, perhaps enough. Or not. The pictured cut out doesn't look like it runs forward much more then 6" +/-. The transom has been raised 2" +/-, which helped the lower front tuck into a small cut out, and probably will allow the motor to tilt up most, if not all of it's range. I would be worried about kinking the cable that runs out of the front of the motor & thru that black grommet (it looks silver, is that the throttle cable?).


I think you'll make a great looking boat, if you can work out the details. I suspect that many of them will depend on having the boat prepped & the wood on-site and it becomes a trial & error design~build, working out the current detail and changing modifying the plan as needed, at pretty much each change in surface.

The reason I asked about sourcing the cedar & a wet environment is because this will be substantially more wood then the Jupiter has. Each piece needs to be as stable as possible. Having multiple joints (seams) compounds the expansion & contraction across the grain. That's one of the reasons wood boats are typically made out of wood rift or quarter sawn:

Notice the vertical grain in the last 2^^^^^ The wood expands, primarily, across the way the tree grows. The flat sawn will expand mostly across the width of the board. The last 2 will too, but most of the expansion will be across the thickness of the board, not the width.
^^^ make sense? Found another pix:

If I wanted to 'skin' any boat (glass or tin) to look anything like the pix Glenn posted, I'd probaly use Okoume/Sapele/Ribbon Sapele 4mm+/- plywood. It's BS1088 certified, uses waterproof adhesives, it's more stable then solid hardwoods, looks like mahogany/teak and is available in single sided 4X8 sheets.
Ribbon Sapele:

Okoume:

Before shipping, an east cost vendor has 3mm for about $80 per 4X8 sheet.

Still digging the concept!

And agreed, hanging in the garage leaning on the hull would be better. Much better....

JB --- Great info. Thanks man!

 

[InMotion]

Re: 1960's Falcon Rebuild (New Title)

May I just say that these sweet boats look totally ridiculous with that egg beater on the back there


LONG LIVE THE IO!!!!!


:behindsofa:

Ok.... hmmmmm..... IO.... hmmmm.... I find it interesting that I will be putting a near 50 year old OUTBOARD on the SC.... haven't seen many 50 year old IO's kickin' round..... just sayin'....

 

[barato2]

Re: 1960's Falcon Rebuild (New Title)

coffee??!! i'll bring the Dos Equis......:tea: i'm assuming that is the Guiness Stout smiley....them brits with their warm beer and all that