'56 Johnson Javelin Shift/Throttle problem

[KathyD19]

Re: '56 Johnson Javelin Shift/Throttle problem

Using electric starter worked! Got equal compression of 150 in both cylinders. Now what? Removing the LU and hunt down the problem with the impeller was on my list next, if that's correct?

 

[nwcove]

Re: '56 Johnson Javelin Shift/Throttle problem

yep, drop the lower and and try to see if the water tube was actually in the pump, you may have missed the grommet when it went back together, or the pump grommet may have gotten pushed into the pump housing blocking it. ( 150 psi seems high, but "even" #,s between both is good)

 

[kfa4303]

Re: '56 Johnson Javelin Shift/Throttle problem

Whew! Glad you got compression Kathy!!!!! That's all that matters at this point. All the rest can be fixed pretty easily. I noticed that you're also using Autoloite plugs. I would change them to the factory correct Champion J6C or J8C to avoid an overly strong/weak spark issues. +1 on nwcove. Hopefully the copper water uptake tube just never got seated properly, which happens more often than you might think. Keep the s'plugs out for now so you can rotate the flywheel clockwise by hand to help get everything aligned when you reinstall the LU. Here are some vids of a guy rebuilding his whole motor. Watch episodes 31-Season Finale pt.2 for a great how-to on impeller and LU reinstalls. I'll also post some links to some vids of motors like yours running in a test tank so you'll know what kind of water flow to expect. Keep us posted.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_-ZfbUNT3A&list=UUqtXoVOxjtEKjjTKj0cFydg&index=9&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tPc3SkIX2g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oafapl_nmCI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcSWUYbAU54&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcvOOucRB-0&feature=fvwrel

 

[HighTrim]

Re: '56 Johnson Javelin Shift/Throttle problem

When testing compression, you use the method the motor uses to start. In your case, the electric starter. Remove both plugs, and ground the plug leads when testing compression. Using alligator clips on either end of a length of wire is easiest, shove one clip into the plug boot, the other onto a head bolt or good ground. Damage could result to the coil under certain conditions.

The oil in the cylinder is the reason for the extremely high reading, but still is a good sign. Adding oil actually cheats a little, as it seals the ring gaps and cylinder gaps, but was necessary to oil it since we werent really sure if there was water intrusion into the cylinder. Better safe than sorry right. Cold and dry you will probably have around 130 to 145 psi.

 

[grid]

Re: '56 Johnson Javelin Shift/Throttle problem

I hate to tell my age, but I was legally working when I rigged my first engine at a marina--a '58 Golden Javelin,54 years ago. Maybe one day I can retire. There seems to have been a coincidence here, rather than a deterioration of operation. For instance, I haven't noticed anyone checked the shear pin. I've seen them in 3 pieces, still able to propel a boat at idle. The prop hub is certainly a possibility, but I'd get an old-timer to check it to see if it's actually slipping. If those two items check out, then you may well be into clutch-dog territory, but remember, if the clutch dog is worn, so are the forward gear's receiver-dogs. Again, look to an old-timer with a Dremel tool who can grind the proper kerf into the forward gear, and forestall replacing an expensive gear.

 

[KathyD19]

Re: '56 Johnson Javelin Shift/Throttle problem

Well, I moved forward and took off the LU. Found an obvious problem with the replacement impeller: the notch on the impeller had slipped off the key of the shaft. I have no idea why/how that happened because I was careful to be sure it was on there when I slid the housing back onto the shaft but I don't like that the notch is "through and through" so it's open on either side of the impeller..I wish it had a stop on one side so that would help hold it in place. Anyhow I had to use PB Blaster to loosen the impeller enough to even be able to slide it up and down on the shaft and then finally could rotate it until the notch lined up with the key so I could slip it back off of the shaft. Since it had worn a bit of a new notch onto the inner ring of the impeller from trying to move when not seated properly I decided that it wasn't safe to reuse. I had saved the one I'd replaced and it was in very good shape (I added a pic of them side by side) so I used it again (my local parts store has to order impellers and it would take til next Monday). I cleaned everything out (there was a lot of gritty black crud in there), put the old impeller back on and was extremely careful to be certain the notch was on the pin. I put it all back together and very carefully reattached the LU. I fed the shaft up into it's hole first, then guided the shifter shaft up to it's hold and made sure to align the water tube to it's hole. Put her back together, filled a bucket and started it up. There was a lot of smoke at first probably from the Fogging Oil but as it cleared in about 45 seconds I could see that there wasn't any water coming out of the pee-hole. GRRRR!!! At that point, my extremely annoying nosy neighbor Glenn was out mowing and I noticed he'd stopped and was probably going to come over and talk at me. I wasn't feeling very friendly so it's for his own good that I hurried inside. I will watch all of those videos kfa, thank you. I'm done for the night. I doubt I'll have it going for my mom tomorrow but if anyone has any other ideas what I can do, I promise I will give it a try tomorrow. I'll take the LU off and check the impeller yet again, then reinstall everything yet again. If it's still dry when running, I'm officially giving up for the season. It's sucking the joy out of me.

 

[cgibbo308]

Re: '56 Johnson Javelin Shift/Throttle problem

dont give up now Kath. Keep at it. you may not have it done by the end of THIS season, but you WILL have it done for the start of the next.. there can only be a few things that can cause the proplem your facing. just calmly look at each part step by step. You CAN and WILL get er done

 

[KathyD19]

Re: '56 Johnson Javelin Shift/Throttle problem

Keep thinking about this...it's so hard to get everything lined up and reinserted when putting the LU back in, so I'm wondering about the water tube. Attaching two pictures here and wondering if there is anything missing, such as a the "pump grommet" that nwcove mentioned?

Also if when I take the water pump apart tomorrow and I find that this impeller is off the key again, like the one was today, what would be causing that to happen?

 

[kfa4303]

Re: '56 Johnson Javelin Shift/Throttle problem

Well at least it is still running, but try not to let it go 45 seconds without pumping water. If it doesn't pump within 5 sec., shut her down. It also looks like the water level in your tank is too low. You should fill the barrel entirely. It will spill over, but that's ok. You need the LU to be well submerged. Sounds like you discovered the impeller key issue too, which really only leaves the copper water uptake tube. Be sure that it is properly seated in the under side of the motor first such that it can hold the tube firmly in place, then install the LU. Hang in there Kathy! You can do it.



Edit: the pics of the tube and grommets look ok. The trick is getting the end of the copper tube to seat fully in the top of the water pump housing. No real secret, other than practice. If you can get someone to hold a flashlight it can help you see where you're going.

 

[KathyD19]

Re: '56 Johnson Javelin Shift/Throttle problem

I was trying to keep the water can full, it developed a leak all around the bottom and was coming out as fast as I could fill it! It's going to the curb for the trash guy tomorrow and I'll pick up another can at WallyWorld tomorrow. I am in love with the headlight flashlights (that use an elastic band to hold the flashlight on your forehead) and I use that so I can be hands-free to work. I'd been paying most attention to getting the shaft in the hole first then lining up the shift shaft so tomorrow it's gonna be all about the *#_@^#! water tube! Btw, when you are referring to the "copper tube", is that the portion that is still on the upper motor or the part on the LU? (I'm assuming the part on the upper motor since it's an actual tube, but I don't want to assume anything anymore, in case there is a copper tube down in the LU part I can't see or something). Also what are your thoughts on the impeller being off the key, if that has happened again? Not trying to jinx myself but want to have a plan in case that happens tomorrow and I can't get hold of anyone on here right away.
Thanks again!

 

[kfa4303]

Re: '56 Johnson Javelin Shift/Throttle problem

I have a leaky trashcan too I have to keep a hose clamped to the side and running the whole time I'm running my motor. LOL. The whole water tube is actually made out of copper just like the plumbing in your house (see pic). Not sure why the impeller key was misaligned. I would make sure that the driveshaft is seated fully into the pinion gear within the gearcase itself. When the driveshaft is in the correct position, the impeller key should be just above the impeller plate. The impeller then slides down onto the driveshaft such that the little notch on its interior aligns with the key. Kind of crazy to think that your motor's entire ability to pump water comes down to that little key engaging the impeller, but there you have it. Focus on that pesky water tube and the driveshaft will follow, but yeah it's tricky getting both of them to go where you need them to go. Mostly just lots of trial and error. Sometimes I get it on the first try, sometimes it's more like the 5th-6th. Hang in there and report back manana. Good luck!

 

[cgibbo308]

Re: '56 Johnson Javelin Shift/Throttle problem

ok KAth. my first idea about the drill is off till i find a big drill chuck.
I just watched vid 31 and 32 that was posted b4. the tube is the tupe coming down from the top.
1 shaft and 1 rod going up from the lu and the tube down.. NIGHTMARE, glad im not doing this YET..
the end of the tube needs a wipe just to remove some of the grit that looks like is there, and lube it to help it into the rubber gromet on the pump. and with that, i think i have come to the end of what I know.

 

[HighTrim]

Re: '56 Johnson Javelin Shift/Throttle problem

Was the impeller OEM or was it Sierra?

Some of the aftermarket ones are just junk and do that. You may have gotten a bad one.

When reinstalling, hold the impeller housing in your hand upside down. Twist the impeller into it CCW. Lower the housing down over the driveshaft. Insert the impeller pin into the slot, then lift up slightly on the driveshaft so that you can watch the pin go into the slot in the impeller, then drop the whole shaft down and tighten the housing bolts. Put o ring back on top of drivshaft and grease splines.

Now, put some grease on the black grommet on top of the impeller housing where the water line will slide in, and some on the water line itself. Put the motor into forward gear, raising the coupler of the shift rod so you do not have to worry about it right away. Slide the gearcase up, a helper is great here, and watch that the water line slides into the impeller housing. Then if the whole thing wont completely slide up, simply rotate the prop while pushing up to let the splines seat and it should slide up. Secure it, then hold the shift rod and ease it back down into neutral so that the coupler drops down over the shift rod. Be sure that the indent lines up with the hole before installing the bolt.

You may also want to flush the water line before installing the gearcase to ensure that it is clear.

 

[82rude]

Re: '56 Johnson Javelin Shift/Throttle problem

last time i ordered an impeller from the erude dealer for a old johnny it arrived and was a sierra.nothing wrong with their impellers as far as im concerned .never gotten a brand new faulty oem part HIGH TRIM?i have ,it happens with every part sooner or later its just the luck of the draw.

 

[AlTn]

Re: '56 Johnson Javelin Shift/Throttle problem

100% with High...the "old" impeller looks to be of a better build than the "new" and hasn't taken a set, nor do the fins look very worn, so disregard advice not to reuse it...I find it easier to reinstall the LU when the motor is tilted < yep, I've tried to install them when it was vertical as well > and it's sure easier with another set of hands to turn the prop or turn the flywheel...DO make sure the ignition system is at least disabled when trying to spin the prop or flywheel < removing the sparkplugs makes it all easier and it can't accidentially fire >...if you can "adapt" a garden hose to fit onto that copper water tube < barely turn the water on as you don't need a lot of pressure or volumn > you can establish that there's a clear passageway through the block and into the exhaust housing

 

[Willyclay]

Re: '56 Johnson Javelin Shift/Throttle problem

Was the impeller OEM or was it Sierra?

Some of the aftermarket ones are just junk and do that. You may have gotten a bad one.

Forum guru Tashasdaddy, may he RIP, reported the same thing several years ago with his 1958 Johnson 35. Nothing else that I can add to what has already been suggested. The really good news is that you have a mechanically sound motor based on the compression test results. That plus no corrosion like a saltwater motor make your's ideal to save. At this point, I'll just be a cheerleader and complement you on your efforts so far and encourage you to stay positive about your ability to overcome this hurdle!

 

[KathyD19]

Re: '56 Johnson Javelin Shift/Throttle problem

Will be home from work in about an hour and will dig into this again. Some more great advice from everyone...I'm truly grateful! The new impeller is a Sierra brand, that's all I could find around here (from NAPA auto parts). High Trim, I've printed out your instructions and will take that outside with me as I go through the process again. As far as the advice to flush the water line/copper tubing..do you mean to squirt (at low pressure) the garden hose up into the tube going up in the motor? Will the water go through the motor if I do that or will it come straight back out the "pee hole"? Also, I never had to turn the prop or the fly wheel before when installing the LU....was I just lucky that things lined up (Lord knows, I haven't been lucky about much with this!) or is that the root of my problem..not turning the prop to seat things correctly? I figured that when I lined everything up and the LU closed up with no struggle that everything was kosher. I assumed all was well because the water was churning in the bucket when I fired up the motor (also it propelled me across the lake with no problem so the prop was turning).

 

[AlTn]

Re: '56 Johnson Javelin Shift/Throttle problem

don't know the diameter of that water pipe, but your garden hose w/o the nozzle may just slip over it and fit well enough...as much as anything, I don't know how that tube fits into the powerhead or adapter plate base...if it's flared at the top, no big deal as it's unlikely that water pressure could force it out and into your hands < not good as it would likely require removing the powerhead to replace >, if it's merely held in place by a grommet too much pressure can result in the afore mentioned. Turn the water on low and give it some time, you'll see where the water exits, hopefully. If it does flow through the block and out, turn the water off and move on.

Yes, the water tube can misalign and all else fasten up fine. If I knew any tricks to being certain the water tube has slipped into the water pump grommet, I'd sure share them. Happen to have a boroscope, on flexshaft inspection camera? I think you could tell by inserting it into the access plate opening for the shift rod coupler and peering downward. Aside from that, it's just finger crossing and hoping.

Get the water level higher in the barrel and be prepared for things to work.

 

[kfa4303]

Re: '56 Johnson Javelin Shift/Throttle problem

Hello Kathy. Today is V-DAY! I've never had a problem with Sierra parts myself, so hopefully it will be fine. To check that all the water passages in the motor are clear, you should use your garden hose and spray water into the water uptake tube on med pressure. You're right that the water will (should) come right out of the main exhaust port on the back of the motor. You'll get wet, but at least you'll know that the tube is properly seated on the underside of the motor and that the passages within the motor are clear. You can also remove the thermostat and pour water into the housing and also watch it come out of the exhaust port. Assuming that is ok, move on to the LU. Consider yourself lucky that you haven't had to rotate the flywheel to get it to align with the drive shaft (sounds a little too good to be true :/ ). However, if you find that they aren't going together you can rotate the flywheel clockwise, with the plugs removed, to help things line up. Just because the water was bubbling doesn't actually mean that the drive shaft was spinning. You see, there' also a large exhaust port below the water line, in addition to the one above the waterline on the back of the motor. As the motor runs, gases are ejected out of this opening and will cause the water to bubble. That's also how the water gets so dirty and oily. Just take your time, use the Force and try to feel both the top of the drive shaft and bottom of the water up take tube seat in their respective positions. I would then connect the shift rods and test to see that the gears are engaging, using the method I described in the previous post in which you cycle through the gears while rotating the flywheel CLOCKWISE slowly by hand (always with the spark plugs removed). When viewed from the stern, the prop should rotate clockwise in FWD, counterclockwise in REV, and not rotate at all in NEU. If you can't get it to do this by hand, then the LU is not installed correctly and you'll need to drop it again and reinstall. It can take several tries on a good day. However, once you confirm gear function, reinstall the spark plugs, put the motor in the test tank, fill it up to about an inch or so below the main exhaust port on the back of the motor and fire her up! Fingers Crossed. Vibes sent. Chants Chanted. Keep us posted........

 

[HighTrim]

Re: '56 Johnson Javelin Shift/Throttle problem

Yeah sometimes you get lucky and she just slides up. Seems like more often than not though I have to rotate the prop to get the driveshaft up the final few inches.

There is no thermostat on her motor, so cannot remove it like you would a newer vintage one.

I personally like to use compressed air to flush the cooling circuit, as I hate making a mess of my shop floor. Just a quick few spurts to ensure all is clear before installing the gearcase is all. Been there, done that. I hate doing things twice.

If you do use the garden hose, no big deal if the water line falls out, just pop it back in. Easy breezy.

Regarding Sierra impellers, I have a BOX of them with the grooves through the hub where the impeller pin tore through them. I agree some OEM parts are NFG out of the box, but have probably installed a few hundred BRP impellers over the last couple years and have not had 1 issue at all with them. Some of Sierra stuff is good, carb kits, stuff like that seems to be ok, but I would highly advise against using a Sierra impeller. Your motor though, just my advice from seeing so many burn up from a failed impeller.