Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

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CaptainPointless

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Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Just contacted the guy, and he said that he'd let it go for 50 bucks. It's looking like a better and better deal, if not for any other reason than to rebuild it and sell it. Might try to see if he'll take 40 for it.
 

SuperNova

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Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

However, I have heard that a stroked 305 (334) makes a pretty decent amount of low-end torque
That's funny, I always heard the 305's were lame in the torque department because they already had too high of a stroke/bore ratio. I would think that increasing the stroke would just make it worse. It's already running the same stroke as a 350 with not near as much bore diameter.
 

CharlieB

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Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Another problem with the 305 is the small cyl dia, prevents using any large valves unless he notches the top of each cyl.

I highly recommend a warmed over 350 any day over a built 305, EXCEPT in a Camaro with a 4 speed and gears so you can twist it up T.I.T. TIGHT to get any real power out of it.

And that AIN'T gonna happen on a boat without a serious power adder.
 

CaptainPointless

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Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

That's funny, I always heard the 305's were lame in the torque department because they already had too high of a stroke/bore ratio. I would think that increasing the stroke would just make it worse. It's already running the same stroke as a 350 with not near as much bore diameter.

Actually, there are a few main benefits to a 305 over a 350. One being the fact that the smaller piston surface area lends itself to cooling faster, so detonation is less of a concern. The second being that they aren't a high-horsepower option (stock, at least), but they actually produce a pretty decent amount of torque. Take a look at this website, it has the numbers that they were able to produce, both from a N/A motor and a modded motor.

Mainly the problem with the 305's is that the airflow through them is highly restrictive. So some of the components can be modified or replaced -- the main 3 of these being the heads, intake manifold, and carb. Just imagine how much more the engine can flow when you add the less-restrictive 350 heads when they don't have to support the extra 45 cubic inches. Even without mods, the 350 heads can easily flow enough for a 334 or 340 stroker, and since my plan is to turbo my motor, a set of dish-top pistons and correct head decking would allow me to generate high torque and hp on pump gas. Swapping out the iron intake manifold with something like an Edelbrock performance dual-plane manifold would further increase the flow through the motor. And last, a high-performance carb like my Predator with a blow-through setup will flow better than the typical marine Rochester carbs you generally see on marine motors.
 

Bondo

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Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Just imagine how much more the engine can flow when you add the less-restrictive 350 heads when they don't have to support the extra 45 cubic inches.

Ayuh,... As already noted, you Can't run big valves... They won't clear the cylinders...
And,...
The exhaust manifolds are the Choke point,... Ya can't stuff it In, if it can't get Out...

I'll take a dead stock 350 pickup truck motor with a 4bbl.carb,+ Vortec heads over your latest dream anyday....
 

SuperNova

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Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Ayuh,... As already noted, you Can't run big valves... They won't clear the cylinders...
And,...
The exhaust manifolds are the Choke point,... Ya can't stuff it In, if it can't get Out...

I'll take a dead stock 350 pickup truck motor with a 4bbl.carb,+ Vortec heads over your latest dream anyday....
Yeahhh, I'm on board with this....pretty much the same thing I've been led to understand....Guys like Bond-o have been around a long time(not that they're OLD or anything:p) and have already contemplated, if not outright experimented, with most things you could possibly come up with and if they've discarded an idea, believe me, it's for a very good reason. You would do well to listen.
 
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CaptainPointless

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Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Ayuh,... As already noted, you Can't run big valves... They won't clear the cylinders...
And,...
The exhaust manifolds are the Choke point,... Ya can't stuff it In, if it can't get Out...

I'll take a dead stock 350 pickup truck motor with a 4bbl.carb,+ Vortec heads over your latest dream anyday....

Bond-o...I have to ask...why the negativity? You may be older than I, you may have more experience boating, but you don't always do your research either. There are MANY people running stroked 305's in the 400hp range, with great success, and on a budget. Plus, you can run 1.94" intake, and 1.50" exhaust valves on 305 pistons. Considering the difference in cylinder displacement and cfm requirements, the flow difference is negligible, considering that a 350 generally runs 2.02" intake, and 1.60" exhaust valves. Difference in intake valve diameter = .08" and difference in exhaust valve diameter = .10"

The spec'd torque for a 350 is 335 ft-lbs, and the spec'd torque for a 305 is 270 ft-lbs This is naturally aspirated. Since I'm planning on running a turbo (as I stated before), there would be more likelihood for the A/F mixture to detonate in a 350, seeing as the cylinder temperatures raise a significant amount more than a 305. What I'm getting at, is that the 305 lends itself more to forced induction, and is an easier tune. People who build 305's build them for torque, not horsepower, which is the same overall goal I have. I'm not saying, by any means, that a 350 is a bad option. I'm just saying that I'm on a budget, and I have an opportunity to pick up a 305 long block for 50 bucks. The build is pretty much just as simple as a 350, so if I can get the parts, why not? It's the same reason that a lot of Ford guys put a 347 in their mustangs instead of simply dropping in a 351W. It's for the fun of the build -- the fun of having something different than most other people.

And I'm not trying to be a d**k, but do you really have to start every post with "Ayuh"?
 

CaptainPointless

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Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Yeahhh, I'm on board with this....pretty much the same thing I've been led to understand....Guys like Bond-o have been around a long time(not that they're OLD or anything:p) and have already contemplated, if not outright experimented, with most things you could possibly come up with and if they've discarded an idea, believe me, it's for a very good reason. You would do well to listen.

No offense directed at you, but if no one did things differently from the accepted ways of the "older" guys, technology would suffer and innovation would never happen. Though it is definitely a help, experience isn't everything. Sometimes you have to think outside the box. I'm curious, has Bond-o ever built a turbocharged 305 stroker for use in a boat? If so, I'd like to see his numbers so I can see for myself why I shouldn't do it. Just because it hasn't been done, doesn't mean it can't or it shouldn't.
 

SuperNova

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Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

No offense directed at you, but if no one did things differently from the accepted ways of the "older" guys, technology would suffer and innovation would never happen. Though it is definitely a help, experience isn't everything. Sometimes you have to think outside the box. I'm curious, has Bond-o ever built a turbocharged 305 stroker for use in a boat? If so, I'd like to see his numbers so I can see for myself why I shouldn't do it. Just because it hasn't been done, doesn't mean it can't or it shouldn't.
No offense taken for sure. In a lot of ways I agree with your wanting to be innovative, I am exactly the same way, believe me. I don't care how many times something has failed, if I can see a better way, I'm gonna try it and I commend anybody who tries to do the same. Buuutttt, in order to minimize wasted effort and finances, you have to closely analyze previous attempts where possible to figure why things didn't work. If something hasn't been attempted before, then the first question you should ask yourself is "Why?" If you think it's because nobody thought of it, well then go ahead an give it a try. But when you present your ideas to a group of seasoned veterans and they tell you why something won't work, you should listen closely if for no other reason than to confirm your own ideas or suspicions.

Here's an example. I happen to be a professional mechanic. I have an associates degree in automotive technology and while an A.A.S. in and of itself is not particularly impressive, the fact that I went to 2 years of college for auto tech should be. Because of my profession, I can build engines, etc. fairly cheaply. A full, balls-out 355 costs me $3500 to build, a 383 about $5000 both engines assume I am starting with nothing. I am talking a balanced, blueprinted, hand-fitted 40 hours of assembly time alone engine. Back before I had kids, I played A LOT with engines. I own all the correct tools for measuring and assembling engines.
I have built engines for street cars, performance cars, performance boats and regular boats. I also tried installing engines I had built for cars originally into boats. I have broken things in engines in the boats that have worked perfectly fine in the cars. I can tell you that the screw in rocker studs that come in some of the performance aftermarket heads won't hold up in a boat application, I can also tell you the ones that will hold up. Does this mean that you can't try and cryogenically improve whatever screw-in studs you want? No, it doesn't. But it does mean that if you want studs that ARE gonna work the first time, then you should listen.

I mean seriously, if you're gonna experiment, then just do it and then tell US what works and what doesn't. But if you're on a budget as you say, then we are just trying to help you get on your way with enjoying the great sport of boating while wasting as little of that precious cash as possible. Bond-o's point is pretty much that for what it would cost you to buy that 305 and build it properly, you could get a 350 out of a truck and make the same power cheaper and more reliably in the long run. He's just trying to help you the same as we all are.
 

Bondo

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Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

And I'm not trying to be a d**k, but do you really have to start every post with "Ayuh"?

Ayuh,... It's my worldwide trademark,... Why wouldn't I,..??

As much as you want to reinvent the wheel,... All of your Theories have been Tested...
You can test 'em again yourself, or educate yourself by reading more about it...
Old sayings, like "There's No replacement for Displacement" were coined by the folks who Tested your Theories many years ago...

To answer the question you asked Nova about Me,... Nope....
But,...
I have a twin turbo 400 SBC project that I've collected Most of the parts for... Vortec heads,+ draw-thru AFB carbs... Turning a Berkley jet...

Btw,.... A Tenth of an Inch is HUGE in motor terms....;)
 

CaptainPointless

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Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Ayuh,... It's my worldwide trademark,... Why wouldn't I,..??

Haha, alright, fair enough. From my own personal experience building motors, I have to disagree with you about the "there's no replacement for displacement" statement. I know it's widely accepted as the easiest solution to the power producing conundrum, however, with some work, any engine can be made to perform far beyond its specs. That's why there are people out there producing 800+ hp through a 1.1L 12A rotary engine. And others pushing 900-1000 hp through a modified Miata motor. It all comes down to the setup. And I guess the way I look at it is, if I have a 305, I could go to a 350. But then, if I'm at a 350, I could just bump up to a 383. Well, I'm close, so why not just jump to a 400? How about a 454? What I'm saying is, there's always a larger displacement power option out there. The challenge lies in building a smaller displacement motor into something beyond what it was expected to be.
 

SuperNova

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Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Haha, alright, fair enough. From my own personal experience building motors, I have to disagree with you about the "there's no replacement for displacement" statement. I know it's widely accepted as the easiest solution to the power producing conundrum, however, with some work, any engine can be made to perform far beyond its specs. That's why there are people out there producing 800+ hp through a 1.1L 12A rotary engine. And others pushing 900-1000 hp through a modified Miata motor. It all comes down to the setup. And I guess the way I look at it is, if I have a 305, I could go to a 350. But then, if I'm at a 350, I could just bump up to a 383. Well, I'm close, so why not just jump to a 400? How about a 454? What I'm saying is, there's always a larger displacement power option out there. The challenge lies in building a smaller displacement motor into something beyond what it was expected to be.
And it's a challenge better left to people not on tightly limited budgets.

I don't see how you can argue the displacement rule, that's just retarded. If you build an engine however you want and then build the exact same engine, only bigger, guess what? The bigger engine will make more power. Doesn't matter if they have nitrous, supercharger, turbo or inter-galactic space drive induction as long as they both have the same.
 

CaptainPointless

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Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

And it's a challenge better left to people not on tightly limited budgets.

I don't see how you can argue the displacement rule, that's just retarded. If you build an engine however you want and then build the exact same engine, only bigger, guess what? The bigger engine will make more power. Doesn't matter if they have nitrous, supercharger, turbo or inter-galactic space drive induction as long as they both have the same.

No, the "replacement/displacement" rule came around before things like nitrous and forced induction became mainstream. Think about this, you CAN'T use the same performance parts on every engine. A turbo that is sized properly for a 283 or a 305 will spool much too quickly for a 350, 383, or 400. And vice versa, a turbo meant for one of the larger displacements would spool too slowly to build horsepower at a usable RPM range. Since I already have a turbo (that I believe lends itself more to the 305), I figure that I can build the motor cheaper than I could build a turbo 350 or 383 for. The reason being that I would need to acquire a different turbo, which would likely cost me a good bit of money. I agree, strictly between piston engines, leaving them naturally aspirated, the displacement rule totally applies. But considering my options, it's more viable to build up a 305 than it is to build a 350. That said, when I get a chance to do some more research on the turbo I have, if it appears that it will work better on a 350, then that is indeed the route I wil take.
 

SuperNova

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Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

No, the "replacement/displacement" rule came around before things like nitrous and forced induction became mainstream. Think about this, you CAN'T use the same performance parts on every engine. A turbo that is sized properly for a 283 or a 305 will spool much too quickly for a 350, 383, or 400. And vice versa, a turbo meant for one of the larger displacements would spool too slowly to build horsepower at a usable RPM range. Since I already have a turbo (that I believe lends itself more to the 305), I figure that I can build the motor cheaper than I could build a turbo 350 or 383 for. The reason being that I would need to acquire a different turbo, which would likely cost me a good bit of money. I agree, strictly between piston engines, leaving them naturally aspirated, the displacement rule totally applies. But considering my options, it's more viable to build up a 305 than it is to build a 350. That said, when I get a chance to do some more research on the turbo I have, if it appears that it will work better on a 350, then that is indeed the route I wil take.
Well, we are going to have to agree to disagree on the displacement thing. As far as your turbo 305, there are a quite few reasons why it won't work, but I won't spoil your fun, you will figure them out as you go along and who knows, maybe you'll solve a problem that nobody has been able to solve in the last 50 or so years. Good luck with it.
 

CaptainPointless

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Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Well, we are going to have to agree to disagree on the displacement thing. As far as your turbo 305, there are a quite few reasons why it won't work, but I won't spoil your fun, you will figure them out as you go along and who knows, maybe you'll solve a problem that nobody has been able to solve in the last 50 or so years. Good luck with it.

Believe me, I'm not trying to be an a-hole. I just fail to see how you can say it won't work when I can literally pull hundreds of examples of people doing exactly this mod to a 305. If you would like I will do so.
 

Bondo

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Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

That's why there are people out there producing 800+ hp through a 1.1L 12A rotary engine. And others pushing 900-1000 hp through a modified Miata motor.
to build horsepower at a usable RPM range.

Ayuh,... Are those Miata motors building HP in the 500rpm/ 5000rpm range,..??
That happens to be where Boat motors work the Best...

There's Alot more to Horsepower than a Number...
 

CharlieB

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Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Most ANY motor can be MADE to run.

So the real questions are;

How well?

At what real costs do you figure the Cost/Benefit Ratio?

And what is the Power to Weight Ratio?

What is the Reliability Factor?


Turbo motors are another creature requiring correct ringland height dependant on application, ditto for cam grind, and valve size. Immediately you should figure cost of replacing at least pistons and cam to maximize application of the engine for the RPM range you intend to run it.

Exhaust fabrication, cost of material, time, insulation for heat handling

Estimate ALL build costs (350, 383, Turbo, etc.) and pretty quick it becomes clear that a warmed over 350 or 383 rapidly shows to be far more cost effective/ and done a whole lot quicker, than mos turbo applications.

No one is going to stop you from doing whatever you want to do, what many are not admitting to is that a lot of us have already been there, done that, and are hoping to share simple facts that you can save yourself a LOT of time and money by simply going with PROVEN RELIABILITY.

I used to work in Seattle, most of my customers went well out into the salt. I may not have coined the phrase, but I still use it a LOT. Now I'm next to the Missouri and Mississippi Rivers, and it STILL applies.

Just remember that you are going to be on a BOAT, and you CANNOT walk home.
 

Subliminal

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Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

I don't have much experience with boat motors, but I've been playing with cars for a while.

I've never heard good things about the 305. Always heard it was about the worst mass-production engine Chevy made.

I spent about a decade playing with the late 80s/early 90s Dodge turbo 4 cylinders. Those engines could produce some power!

It isn't too terribly uncommon to see people popping out 400 HP on a 2.2L 4 cylinder. I mean, those people aren't the norm, but they exist.

An engine that is made for a turbo application, with some programming to back it up is a wonderful thing.

On the flip side, you see these little Honda 4 cylinder folks running, and sometimes they run fast...REAL FAST...but they drop tens of thousands of dollars into their econo-cruiser to get it to work well with the forced air application.

What does that have to do with anything? I don't know. Maybe just choosing the right parts for the application, ie, not trying to reinvent the wheel...
 

SuperNova

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Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Believe me, I'm not trying to be an a-hole. I just fail to see how you can say it won't work when I can literally pull hundreds of examples of people doing exactly this mod to a 305. If you would like I will do so.
I did NOT say the mods won't work, anything can be made to work. Installing it in a boat is another matter. Feasability is the problem and where you lack in your considerations. You're not being an a**hole, you're just being contrary and, it seems, thriving on the controversy. It's all good. But you do need to grab a book written by a RELIABLE source and educate yourself a WHOLE lot more on the realities of engine dynamics. Not to be an a**hole or anything.
 

CaptainPointless

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Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

I did NOT say the mods won't work, anything can be made to work. Installing it in a boat is another matter. Feasability is the problem and where you lack in your considerations. You're not being an a**hole, you're just being contrary and, it seems, thriving on the controversy. It's all good. But you do need to grab a book written by a RELIABLE source and educate yourself a WHOLE lot more on the realities of engine dynamics. Not to be an a**hole or anything.

I will admit, I do indeed enjoy the debates. Controversy breeds innovation. Like I said before, if people didn't figure out different ways to approach common problems, those problems would never get solved.

You say that feasibility is the problem...can I ask what you mean? If you are referring to the difficulty of the build, then in all honesty, the build is no more difficult than a comparable 350 build. After all, they are essentially the same engine block with a different bore. But it sounds more like you don't think it's easily used in a boat application. Why do you say this? The motor that I'm looking at originally came from a boat. While a turbo adds some complexity to any setup, I see no reason that this should be much more different than using a merc 350 in the same application.
 
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