Ethanol and fuel system problems

[Rainbow Bridge]

Ethanol and fuel system problems

Hi, I hear so much about how E-10 and soon E-15 will ruin our boat motors....and how you can't leave it in your tank over the winter....

Any thoughts?

Russ

 

[rallyart]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

The alcohol is a co-solvent with water and with gasoline. It's what is in gas line antifreeze. When in a humid area for an extended time it actually pulls water out of the air into the fuel mix. It also breaks down faster than gasoline. Those are the problems with it as pertains to boats rather than cars.
The other problem is that some plastics are affected by it and can be either disolved or made brittle over time. Older engines can be a problem but brand new engines should be able to handle it without problem.

As an aside, there is no rational reason for any fuel to have more than 10% alcohol in it and it should be ethanol and not methanol.

 

[JoLin]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

And away we go.

Rainbow Bridge, there must be a million threads about the ethanol 'problem' on this forum, so you might want to do a search. I no longer participate in them.

Instead, I'm going to make some popcorn, sit back, and enjoy the (ahem) debate...

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

when considering the many opinions, discern where the writer lives. In cold dry climates, the problem is not as bad as humid areas or areas with temperature changes. Change all the can/can't to should/shouldn't.

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

People who had fuel problems before ethanol, continue to have fuel problems after ethanol.

You know what the single best thing you can do for your marine engine and its fuel system is? USE THE BOAT! Run the gas through it and burn it up. Quit leaving it in your driveway and at the dock for months at a time!

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

People who had fuel problems before ethanol, continue to have fuel problems after ethanol.

You know what the single best thing you can do for your marine engine and its fuel system is? USE THE BOAT! Run the gas through it and burn it up. Quit leaving it in your driveway and at the dock for months at a time!

That statement is the single best answer I have seen and I agree 100%. Old gas (sitting in a tank) regardless of pre-ethanol or post ethanol is still old gas. You can comfort yourself with over the counter additives for the gas.

 

[PKomrowski]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

What they said about using the fuel.. But there is something I have tried that has made a big difference in my small motors that I may not have ever noticed in the big motors, as they I believe are more sensitive to the fuel. I always use a higher octane gas. There seem to be many benefits and one is if it dose break down a little between tanks its still higher than the lower stuff you can put right into your tank. I also use Marine stabilizer every time I add gas.

I use it in everything now from the gas cans I fill the lawn mower to the weed eater gas. It has made a big difference in my equipment, I used to have allot of motor problems in snow blowers, 4 wheelers, weed-eaters, basically everything. I probably have 20 small engines for one thing or another, and when I'm filling the tanks and cans with the higher octane gas and using the treatment i have zero problems even when the fuel is 6 months old.

This was not the case before I started doing this, and I'm picky of the pump I get the fuel out of, the pumps with one hose and 4 choices... You know the ones that I'm talking about: how many gallons of the "previous" gas octane do you get before getting the octane your paying for. I ride a motorcycle and it dose make a difference if your getting less than 5 gal - At least I have found it dose. I use the pump with a dedicated hose for the better fuel, after all why not? Probably wouldn't matter if your getting over 10 in one container, but just sayin...

I do keep the cans tightly sealed so no water can migrate like a boat, and boat fuel only last a couple of months at best except the last tank in fall goes from September to March, and the boat starts in just a few cranks. Its wicked cold for 5 months of the year here as well.

Gas quality varies allot around the country, most guys don't get this thats, why you have so many arguments as they are not comparing apples to apples. Our gas is some of the worst in UP State NY. The gas for instance they sell in OKC OK will give me 6 mph more in any vehicle I have owned. So you have to put your slant on what you have available and what your working with, you may not have any problems at all regardless, if your fuel is high quality.

For my place on the planet this system I described is cheap and has worked flawless so far.

 

[PiratePast40]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

Rainbow Bridge - It's probably a good idea to add your boat and engine information to your signature. From one of your previous posts, I'm guessing that you have an older boat with a Volvo 280 outdrive. If you have a system from the 70's, then the rubber fuel lines are probably not made of modern components and could very well be subject to deterioration from ethanol. Let us know about the specifics of your boat and we can have a better discusion of your real or potential problems.

 

[R Socey]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

Ethanol is crap for any motor. I hear they want to bump it up
to 15% accross the board. I had to replace all my old rubber
on two motors. I think you fuel injection guys have even more
problems than us old carb heads. Startron seems to help com-
bat it's hydrocopic properties for about a year. We should all
write are congress people - especially you midwest boys - tell
them we hate the crap. Amen Tilliam WE!

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

Ethanol is crap for any motor. I hear they want to bump it up
to 15% accross the board. I had to replace all my old rubber
on two motors. I think you fuel injection guys have even more
problems than us old carb heads. Startron seems to help com-
bat it's hydrocopic properties for about a year. We should all
write are congress people - especially you midwest boys - tell
them we hate the crap. Amen Tilliam WE!

Hogwash from a midwest guy. We've been using E-10 for decades. Read and become educated on the topic. If ethanol is so terrible, I would have expected my E-85 powered Impala to blow up long ago (it currently has 60,000 miles on it). I've said it before and I'll say it again. IF -- repeat IF -- repeat again IF you have an older outboard that was built prior to the E-10 mandate and IF -- repeat IF you neglected the fuel system in that engine you very likely will have some carb issues when switching to E-10. A carb rebuild with ethanol tolerant components and replacement of hoses with new ones will take care of the issues. What invariably happens is gummed up carbs get cleaned up by the ethanol. The engine begins to run poorly (generally lean). People continue to run it until it pukes. Then the mechanic (who is also uninformed) blames E-10. Use a water separating fuel filter if moisture is an issue, add fuel system treatments like Stabil or SeaFoam and go boating. It is not necessary to empty the fuel tank for winter storage. Times change and unless you change or adapt to those changes you become a victim of circumstances.

 

[R Socey]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/biofuels/e15-gasoline-damage-engine-2 Boats arn't used every day like your trusty Impala. I've read enough to know I don't like it. Have you been to the grocery store lately? Something don't seem right about burning food.
Why the huge controversy? If it is a good thing, than why isn't it persua-
sive. It's attributes should speak for itself. I think it's all political malarkey.
We all know that the polititians have just about ruined this country - cops,and illegals all over the place, and no jobs! Now what the hell is wrong with that picture?

 

[Av8nBill]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

I haven't been boating long, but this last season with a NOS 2006 Tohatsu 15 h.p. (that didn't sit more than a couple weeks between outings) I had to visit my mechanic twice for fuel related issues. The first time I hadn't used any stabilizer but the second time I was using new gas with Sta-Bil at the recommended dosage and it was no more than a couple weeks between runs. May be bad luck, may be coincidence, but I am no big fan of adding something to our gas that requires me to add something else to it to keep it usable. :facepalm:

 

[Rainbow Bridge]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

Thanks to all who replied to this post. While it certainly is food for thought, and lively discussion, an hour on the web reading about all the damaged engines can't be ignored.

I own and have use of several boats, an oldie like the 79 bayliner with the 260 Volvo I'm replacing, a mid nineties Maxum with a 120 Force (please don't snicker..., have several outboards, but recently the ethanol issue was brought up in a buddy's '07 115 optimax. It started stalling and losing power. We disassembled the fuel filter/float system and found all this brown goop. When the goop/sludge dried it was like tile grout.....had to be chipped out! I'd not seen this in a 3 yr old fuel system, ever.

FYI: here are a couple of great info links I found

411 on Ethanol http://www.goldeagle.com/engine_care/411onethanol.aspx

and this one in particular, testing done by Practical Sailor Nov '08

http://www.goldeagle.com/UserFiles/file/Ethanol 411/Gold Eagle eGas Article PSL.pdf

My question is: why would you add something that is almost 20% LESS efficient, ruins engines and tanks, requires self defense additives....and makes you burn even MORE fuel?

Could it be Politics and Money?

My Bottom line: Keep the alcohol in your Martini and gas in your tank...

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

Okay, It has been discussed on these forums enough and people always want to turn political. iboats is a no politics forum. A few people do not understand that. One more mention and this thread will be vaporized. All new member's to iboats please take note.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

OK folks take a deep breath and start thinking like a reasonable person.
1) Jobs have disappeared because unions have held up the U.S. for decades and corporations have had to bow to them. Unions have priced themselves out their jobs and if you happened to be in the auto industry I hope you took notice how efficient things can be without them. New Jersey and New York for example have hundreds of tenured teachers on full payroll yet they don't set foot in a classroom because they unfit teachers yet they cannot be fired. How do you think that sits with those who do report to work every day and honestly try to make a difference. Yes - politics gets involved in our daily lives but too many people want the government to take care of them from cradle to grave. If you have not paid attention to the economy and the goings on in the industry you are employed in, and at the same time you fail to keep your skill-set in tune with those changes, you should fully expect to end up in the unemployment line. Yes -- being in the wrong place at the wrong time can cost you a job. However if you "pay attention to trends" you can generally make a move to avoid a layoff. Get the picture here? Don't blame everyone else for a job loss. Point the finger at yourself first. Education is available in many forms yet people simply refuse to update their skill-sets or even investigate an alternate trade or profession.

2) Ethanol is made from corn and nearly anything that grows in the ground. Remember the alternate energy debate from 25 years ago and the first real fuel shortages in the '70s. Well, ethanol is the result of that. Long term solution of a short term problem. When a resource is shifted from industry (food for example) to production of fuel (ethanol for example) there is a resulting shift in the costs of the product. Can't have it both ways. Now here is a novel idea. Why not get rid of farm subsidies since most of the very large farms are corporate owned and really don't need them -- but they keep getting them because many of our politicians have a vested interest in these organizations.

3) Ethanol (E-85) is currently 50 cents/gallon cheaper then regular. As long as there is 40 cent/gallon difference in the cost it is to my advantage as thats where the economy difference enters the picture. Again, people don't bother to figure this stuff out and take advantage of it. They just nod their head because someone else told them it was bad. Fact is the engine doesn't give a darn what fuel it burns because it can't tell the difference. It just delivers the power that's in the charge of fuel it is given. It is the external fuel delivery systems that can cause issues if neglected, whether you are burning regular gas, E10, E85 100% ethanol as in Brazil or diesel fuel.

4) Here in the tundra our boats, including my own, sit from late October/early November until April or even May and they start and run just fine IF the proper precautions were taken during the layup process. If all you do is park the boat in the fall and expect it to run fine in the spring, chances are you had the same issues when that engine ran on regular gas.

5) Only one of my many gasoline driven engines has ever had an issue with E-10 and that was a 70's vintage chain saw that had a fuel line fall apart in the tank and I'm not certain that was caused by E-10, old age, addititive in pre-E10 fuel or all three. Having done far more engine work than the average contributor on this board I have yet to see an engine that was destroyed by ethanol. I have certainly seen many destroyed engines -- but they were destroyed because their owners failed to heed the warnings the engine was giving them and continued to run them. Sort of not going to the doc when experiencing chest pain. You can die from that you know!!!!!! 'nuff said.

 

[Rainbow Bridge]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

Bob_VT,

it's not my intention to get "political".

However why can't legislation that impacts our sport, or in some cases livelihood, like ethanol issues, towing laws, C.A.R.B. laws...(Trailer Boats just stated that catalytic converters on IO's will increase the price by over $2K) be discussed in Boat topics by reasonable concerned responsible boaters?

That said, looks like the prudent course is indeed to use an additive, replace older hoses...

and spend more time boating....

 

[wbc1957]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

OK folks take a deep breath and start thinking like a reasonable person.
1) Jobs have disappeared because unions have held up the U.S. for decades and corporations have had to bow to them. Unions have priced themselves out their jobs and if you happened to be in the auto industry I hope you took notice how efficient things can be without them. New Jersey and New York for example have hundreds of tenured teachers on full payroll yet they don't set foot in a classroom because they unfit teachers yet they cannot be fired. How do you think that sits with those who do report to work every day and honestly try to make a difference. Yes - politics gets involved in our daily lives but too many people want the government to take care of them from cradle to grave. If you have not paid attention to the economy and the goings on in the industry you are employed in, and at the same time you fail to keep your skill-set in tune with those changes, you should fully expect to end up in the unemployment line. Yes -- being in the wrong place at the wrong time can cost you a job. However if you "pay attention to trends" you can generally make a move to avoid a layoff. Get the picture here? Don't blame everyone else for a job loss. Point the finger at yourself first. Education is available in many forms yet people simply refuse to update their skill-sets or even investigate an alternate trade or profession.

2) Ethanol is made from corn and nearly anything that grows in the ground. Remember the alternate energy debate from 25 years ago and the first real fuel shortages in the '70s. Well, ethanol is the result of that. Long term solution of a short term problem. When a resource is shifted from industry (food for example) to production of fuel (ethanol for example) there is a resulting shift in the costs of the product. Can't have it both ways. Now here is a novel idea. Why not get rid of farm subsidies since most of the very large farms are corporate owned and really don't need them -- but they keep getting them because many of our politicians have a vested interest in these organizations.

3) Ethanol (E-85) is currently 50 cents/gallon cheaper then regular. As long as there is 40 cent/gallon difference in the cost it is to my advantage as thats where the economy difference enters the picture. Again, people don't bother to figure this stuff out and take advantage of it. They just nod their head because someone else told them it was bad. Fact is the engine doesn't give a darn what fuel it burns because it can't tell the difference. It just delivers the power that's in the charge of fuel it is given. It is the external fuel delivery systems that can cause issues if neglected, whether you are burning regular gas, E10, E85 100% ethanol as in Brazil or diesel fuel.

4) Here in the tundra our boats, including my own, sit from late October/early November until April or even May and they start and run just fine IF the proper precautions were taken during the layup process. If all you do is park the boat in the fall and expect it to run fine in the spring, chances are you had the same issues when that engine ran on regular gas.

5) Only one of my many gasoline driven engines has ever had an issue with E-10 and that was a 70's vintage chain saw that had a fuel line fall apart in the tank and I'm not certain that was caused by E-10, old age, addititive in pre-E10 fuel or all three. Having done far more engine work than the average contributor on this board I have yet to see an engine that was destroyed by ethanol. I have certainly seen many destroyed engines -- but they were destroyed because their owners failed to heed the warnings the engine was giving them and continued to run them. Sort of not going to the doc when experiencing chest pain. You can die from that you know!!!!!! 'nuff said.

Don't forget to breathe a bit when you decide to make these long and strong replies.

 

[tx1961whaler]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

Bob_VT,

it's not my intention to get "political".

However why can't legislation that impacts our sport, or in some cases livelihood, like ethanol issues, towing laws, C.A.R.B. laws...(Trailer Boats just stated that catalytic converters on IO's will increase the price by over $2K) be discussed in Boat topics by reasonable concerned responsible boaters?

That said, looks like the prudent course is indeed to use an additive, replace older hoses...

and spend more time boating....

Mostly because some have deeply held beliefs that may or may not be factual, and they freak out if anyone contradicts them and the discussion turns real ugly real quick. This is not at all a homogeneous group here on the forums.....

 

[jmarty10]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

Hogwash from a midwest guy. We've been using E-10 for decades. Read and become educated on the topic. If ethanol is so terrible, I would have expected my E-85 powered Impala to blow up long ago (it currently has 60,000 miles on it). I've said it before and I'll say it again. IF -- repeat IF -- repeat again IF you have an older outboard that was built prior to the E-10 mandate and IF -- repeat IF you neglected the fuel system in that engine you very likely will have some carb issues when switching to E-10. A carb rebuild with ethanol tolerant components and replacement of hoses with new ones will take care of the issues. What invariably happens is gummed up carbs get cleaned up by the ethanol. The engine begins to run poorly (generally lean). People continue to run it until it pukes. Then the mechanic (who is also uninformed) blames E-10. Use a water separating fuel filter if moisture is an issue, add fuel system treatments like Stabil or SeaFoam and go boating. It is not necessary to empty the fuel tank for winter storage. Times change and unless you change or adapt to those changes you become a victim of circumstances.

Touchdown! Midwestern'r here also. Stored boat over winter for last 4 years that included e-10gas and never had a problem upon startup. First boat was a 93 merc 3.0l and no problems over the winter. Stabil it over the winter and burn it in the summer.

 

[Rainbow Bridge]

Re: Ethanol and fuel system problems

Mostly because some have deeply held beliefs that may or may not be factual, and they freak out if anyone contradicts them and the discussion turns real ugly real quick. This is not at all a homogeneous group here on the forums.....

Well, intolerance certainly does contribute to human woes....a wise old guy I once knew had a saying...."reasonable people can disagree"...sage advice...

That said....In my now several hours of research, I have yet to find anyone have a "fix" for the dreaded alleged "phase separation" from the ethanol.....and then there's the issue of fiberglass/plastic fuel tanks melting...

...the fellow who said he was going to make popcorn and watch probably had the best idea...