No Love for the Merc 470

[artificialreef]

This is a post from another message board. Just forwarding to all the 470 bashers on this board. I see alot of folks telling people to run from this engine. (kind of odd for a Mercruiser message board) I just got a fixer upper boat for peanuts that sat for 2 years and put in a new fuel filter, plugs, oils change (bypassed the fuel tank) and it started right up and purrs like kitten. It has 2 engines and am working on a spark issue on the second but expect the same result. 26 ft. (It came from the prev owner with the alt conversion and updated risers) 1983 Tiara with twin 470's w/good compression for 2500$. Some of you guys seem to have a preference just like there are Chevy, Ford and Dodge people out there. Yes they discontinued this engine. Just like toyota discontinued the 4afe engine that I now have 200000 thousand mile on and still has great comp and doesnt give me any probs.

470 in my 79 StarCraft Islander runs like a bull at 170 degrees all day on poco 87 octane. Just now modernizing another 3.7L build with CJ aluminum head, Qjet, new cam and mild internals for better power and economy. Engine Analyzer Pro indicates this rugged four-banger can make serious cruising power with minor updates. Most problems with them have been due to lack of maintenance and DUFUS lazy mechanics.

 

[Don S]

Re: No Love for the Merc 470

Then go to that other message board for the information you want to hear, do not bring it here to start a fight.
If you found a board that answers your questions the way you want them answered, fine. But don't expect to change what the members of this board are saying and their reasons for saying it.

Most problems with them have been due to lack of maintenance and DUFUS lazy mechanics.

Same with any engine, and in reallity that lazy mechanic is usually the boat owner doing his own work because he can't afford to have a pro do it to begin with. Then there are the things that are just wrong with that engine.
Sure they develop a lot of HP and torque, when the work. But that's the problem, they don't always work.
But for the few who have a working 470, good on you. But don't expect everyone here to tell you how great it is and to recommend them to first time boat owners that aren't mechanically inclined or know anything about boats.

 

[artificialreef]

Re: No Love for the Merc 470

So Don, I guess the moderator here is the lead basher. I am not looking for a fight. If I went to an automotive site with an edsel I dont think I would want to hear everyone bash what I have. Most of us here are looking for help. I can tell by your responce that you probably had a 470 that didnt perform to your liking. Try to be an impartial moderator. I would like to see if this reply ever sees the light of day.

 

[mthieme]

Re: No Love for the Merc 470

One of my neighbors has a 470 in his Wellcraft V20...a classic package. I love the rumble this engine makes - it sounds tough. He's been around the water and boats his entire life. As a result, he has no problems. I think the seasoned veteran is going to be able to handle most issues that arise. The novice is going to be a different story. Most of the bashing I see is steering the rookies away from it. To me this makes sense. I go through the same crap with my Cobra OD. Personally, I'd like to run across one of these to stick behind a V-drive I have laying around and put it in a Hydroplane.
I play with old tractors, some over 60 years old. Many of which are so obsolete they make Cobras, 470's and everything else look like child's play when it comes to keeping them running and finding parts. I also have friends that restore really obscure things (e.g. WWII British personnel carrier). Right on my street, we have a machinist complete with shop (and a seemingly endless supply of SS stock), my complete woodworking shop, welders, electricians, one guy that works with boats donated to charity (read: endless supply of parts), and common to everyone is the combined years of experience working on, restoring and building boats which is easily adds up to 1/2 a millinium...again just on my street. A friend I grew up with has been a marine mechanic professionally for 35 years. So with experience and resources, little things like obsolecence and NLA parts are a nuisance at worst. Also, being in Chesapeake country helps as just about everyone has something in their back yard. Anywho I could ramble on and on.
But to reaffirm IMO, I think the crew is merely steering the rookies more towards setups that are easier to maintain (given a choice).

 

[artificialreef]

Re: No Love for the Merc 470

thanks mthieme, you are a very nice person and i think posses conflict resolution skills. Are you a Judge or perhaps a Psycologist or counselor? I think you are giving the bashers more credit than they deserve. I dont think their motives were so honorable. Most are just loyal to their brands or models. But anyway you are a credit to our race mthieme. Homosapiens

 

[artificialreef]

Re: No Love for the Merc 470

Don, dont Tase me bro!

 

[abj87]

Re: No Love for the Merc 470

Most of the problem that stem from this engine are charging and cooling system problems which are not that big of a deal to fix.

if their that bad how come so many are still around?

 

[mthieme]

Re: No Love for the Merc 470

thanks mthieme, you are a very nice person and i think posses conflict resolution skills. Are you a Judge or perhaps a Psycologist or counselor? I think you are giving the bashers more credit than they deserve. I dont think their motives were so honorable. Most are just loyal to their brands or models. But anyway you are a credit to our race mthieme. Homosapiens

LOL. Thanks. Most people that know me would disagree without hesitation though.
I've been hanging around here a while so I know some of the regulars including the mods. I agree that there is some brand/model bashing. While their motives may not pure of heart, if I were a novice I would probably appreciate being steered towards something more maintenance friendly. Most people want something they can just hop in, turn the key and go. As with any hobby, there are different levels of expertise required.
With the more seasoned posters (boaters), there are some intelligent and useful discussions involving older and/or more obstinate stuff including the 470. There is wealth of information here. Don himself can tell you the idiosyncracies of the 470 and how to best work around them.
I get frustrated with the Cobra bashing at times but just figure I'm one of the few lucky ones.
One piece of advice for you...like it or not...mod bashing is a basic no-no in the forum. Use PM to comment concerning that area.

 

[Howard Sterndrive]

Re: No Love for the Merc 470

no one has ever bashed the 470 here that I can see.

Generally, what has been said at iboats from what I have read:

1. If very well maintained, they are fine. Good power to weight ratio.

2. Like any marine engine, ... if neglected, they will need parts and work.

3. 470 parts are rare, expensive and working on a 470 is tedious and finicky compared to most other car derived units.

4. If one has a choice between a 470 and a common car derived e.g. 4.3 Chevy, go with the 4.3 or a Chevy V8 where complete manifold/riser sets can be had new for $400, and starter motors are $59 etc. etc. and all are available in stock at multiple places online and in your town

5. If the history of the boat is unknown, (i.e. "project"), avoid the 470 due to points in number 4 above ^^

6. Repowering a 470 boat with another type of engine is very difficult due to unique transom plate and with twins, the cutouts may be too close together to ever put vee engines in

 

[artificialreef]

Re: No Love for the Merc 470

My apologies to Don, I guess I am just lashing out since I have allready purchased these motors that everyone says s*ck. Wish me luck. Sorry Don.

 

[artificialreef]

Re: No Love for the Merc 470

Howard, there was a gentleman on here a couple of days ago that had an immaculate boat w/a 470 that he could have had for next to nothing. Several folks here said run away and they didnt even know what kind of boat it was. He chose not to get it based on those opinions. I had nothing to do with that sale but to tell someone to run from something he may have been able to afford that may have been an oportunity for he and his family to enjoy boating because of a partiality to a certain brand or model to me kind of s*cks. But I guess he should have realised everything you read on the internet is not gospel.

 

[Robj]

Re: No Love for the Merc 470

In that situation, the perspective buyer was asking about a hole with 90 psi compression. Most people know that 90 is too low but obviously he did not. Therefore this leads one to believe that he probably does not have the skill to repair/rebuild it. In which case he should run, even a free boat can end up being very expensive if you rely on a shop to do all your work.

If someone were to give me a free or extremely cheap boat with a 470 would I take it? Possibly. But I do all the work myself and would be careful not to put more $$ into it than it is worth.

I disagree that brand bashing takes place at this site. Don is a big Mercuruiser fan, read his posts. He also likes Volvo's. It just happens that the 3.7 was not one of Mercruisers better engines. I firmly believe that all the advice he gives is genuine, it is just some people don't like to hear the truth. If that 3.7 l engine was so good, they would still be available, much like the GM 4 cylinder has been for decades.


Have a great day,

Rob.

 

[artificialreef]

Re: No Love for the Merc 470

Rob, dude. Your back to the argument that they dont make it anymore. Like i said in the thread. Toyota doesnt make the 4afe anymore. And mine is still running.

 

[artificialreef]

Re: No Love for the Merc 470

And how has GM been doing lately?

 

[s1120]

Re: No Love for the Merc 470

You know, I have a 3.7 and realy like the engine. As was said they sound AWSOME . But realy... it has good power, and is light weight. I have read most of the post here about them, and ya... I wish they were looked on in a better light.. but I have to say I have learned a lot about them. I knew about the charging system, and small heat exchanger problem, but never knew about the cam seal issue. I was looking at another boat, and the seller said it had a water pump leak, and needed eather a "new pump, or gasket" so I knew enough to walk away from it.

 

[ziggy]

Re: No Love for the Merc 470

i won't bash yer 470 version engine man. i'm glad your happy with it and that it runs good for you.

myself. when i was looking at boats i ran from all 470's because of known issues with the engine. issues of which i learned about here on iboats. other places too.... http://www.sterndrives.com/470information/470coolantleakrepair.html now i'm not the sharpest shadetree there ever was. but i can see that no other mfg. used a stator for a charging system, or a water cooled voltage reg. either. then there is the dissimilar head and block metels used along with no locating studs for head alignment. or the color coded, varying push rod lengh to adj. valves. there's the 3'' heat exchanger that wasn't big enough or the leaking cam seal that mixes coolant with oil. those items there were enough for me to not want one. i think boats are hard enough to keep alive. they're maint. intensive even. i just didn't think i needed a engine that was gonna be an obstacle for me getting to and being on the lake, which is my goal.
so i listened to the folks here at iboats. i read about the 470 version engine at other places too like the link inserted above. these were reason enough for me to leave well enough alone. i'm a poor boater. i didn't think i needed a poorly designed engine to add to my grief. so i avoided it. no matter how cool the boat was.
like i said man. more power to ya. i'm glad ya like what you have and hope you have many great boating seasons to come...

 

[Howard Sterndrive]

Re: No Love for the Merc 470

Howard, there was a gentleman on here a couple of days ago that had an immaculate boat w/a 470

this one?:

Found a boat for sale locally. It's very cheap and the catch is that it overheats. The engine is a 1979 mercruiser 470.

That one is from a few days ago.
No words even remotely similar to immaculate, clean, good condition, or even "half decent" appear in that thread.

and the other one:
A COMPRESSION TEST WAS DONE AND SHOWED THE #1 CYLINDER WAS A LITTLE LOW (90, other cylinders around 150)

I think the poster was quoting an ad. or phone conversation with a seller, not relaying actual inspection results.
The capital letters indicate that the poster is new, and didn't take any time to read the basic etiquette info before posting.

Please link to the thread you are referring to if you have it handy.

He chose not to get it based on those opinions.

Rather than read a manual, go to school, apprentice, or work on engines, boats, machinery and systems for decades like many of this boards' posters, the person asked for opinions on an open message forum and based a major purchase decisions on the responses.

I can't really feel all that sorry for him. Even if this immaculate boat did exist in some other thread I can't find.

If anyone has the skills to fix these units, they have the skills to properly inspect them. If that's a prospective owner, then they have some grunt work to do. If one is going to use a local mechanic to maintain and repair..then they should hire them to come along for an inspection.

One can factor others message board opinions in at whatever weighting one wants to give them. If the weighting is 100% in the decision making, then the return on the investment of time and effort is showing..... near zero effort in...near zero reward out.

You shoulda seen me inspect the last i/o boat I dragged home.

I was crawling over it for 3 hours in the sellers driveway. Then I went back the next day and spent another hour. If I pay myself $20/hr and $20 for gas... I did all that inspecting for much less than the price of a tune-up.

I probably factored general industry reputation and internet opinion of my model of boat and powerplant at about 5%, and used it to negotiate the price down. (see my avatar).
I know if I asked about my boat, the response would be "run", and generally it would be true.

At some point a buyer has to get off the sofa, and off the internet, and go twist some screwdrivers on some drain plugs.

 

[mthieme]

Re: No Love for the Merc 470

And IMO, these are the very reasons why the crew steers the rookies away from this power plant.
These are for the more seasoned (and patient). You can use a 4" riser, convert the charging system over, etc. Time. Money. Patience. Love. Not everybody has this.

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: No Love for the Merc 470

Rob, dude. Your back to the argument that they dont make it anymore. Like i said in the thread. Toyota doesnt make the 4afe anymore. And mine is still running.

Yeah, and are any of their current 4 cylinder engines similiar to it? I'll bet you a quarter they are very similiar, if not direct derivatives of that engine family. Right?

It's not just that the 470 isn't made anymore, it's that NOTHING Mercruiser has done since is even similiar. Every "concept" they used to make that engine, they abandoned. And now it's been 20 years since the last was produced. That mean EXPENSIVE PARTS or NLA PARTS.

And it is for those reasons that I will always advise someone (almost always a newbie to boating) to RUN AWAY from a 470 with an unknown history, or one that already has problems.
That's not bashing, that trying to help a person not make a huge mistake.

Take your hurt pride and snippiness to that other board, if you like. Maybe they'll make you feel better?

 

[s1120]

Re: No Love for the Merc 470

BTW I would like to hear how that engine with the CJ head works out for you!!! I would think the ports would be a little big for making lowend power in a boat. [would be a AWSOME little mill for a old Pinto or something though!!!]