Oil in water...getting it out

[Bondo]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

That's the only reason I went down this path.

Ayuh,... But by Your discriptions, you haven't Hydro-locked....
That doesn't fit what would be expected, if backwash was the Problem...

Did you get the transom especially Deep when loading,..?? That could explain it...
Otherwise,... I'd be Lookin' at the Manifolds,+ risers.... They 94s, Right,..??
Sweetwater, or Salt history,..??
Are any of the sparkplugs Exceptionally Clean,..??

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Sealant on the threads of the head bolts that pass into the water jacket?? Rislone, for those who are not aware of it, is an extremely high detergency, 5 weight engine oil that has been around for decades. It is an excellent product that has outlived it's usefulness in modern day engines that live on much better oils. That said, there are still applications for it and cleaning up a gunked up engine is one of them. Three quarts to a change is overkill but one quart as a replacement for one quart of engine oil is ok to actually run the engine. SeaFoam is a cleaning agent and not intended to be used as a lubricant in high concentrations.

 

[joncrisler]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Sealant on the threads of the head bolts that pass into the water jacket?? Rislone, for those who are not aware of it, is an extremely high detergency, 5 weight engine oil that has been around for decades. It is an excellent product that has outlived it's usefulness in modern day engines that live on much better oils. That said, there are still applications for it and cleaning up a gunked up engine is one of them. Three quarts to a change is overkill but one quart as a replacement for one quart of engine oil is ok to actually run the engine. SeaFoam is a cleaning agent and not intended to be used as a lubricant in high concentrations.

I agree with this line of thinking- some head bolt holes are blind (sealed) while others are open to the oil passageways- if you have open head bolt holes and do NOT use sealent, you may get water / coolent in the oil. Blind or open holes depends on the engine and year- I am only familier with 454's which mostly have open holes.

If you determine that your engine has open holes, then the fix is the same as replacement of the head gaskets, except that this time use an approved sealant on the bolts. If you are confident that the head gaskets are ok / not leaking, then you can try the following- drain the block of water, drain the oil, pull the bolts, replace the bolts using sealant.

Also, somebody mentioned changing the oil, then running it HARD. If you have water in the oil, then I totally disagree- I would run it soft, only at idle or a fast idle with no load. Water makes a really poor lubricant. Once you solve the problem, use the cheapest oil (like a 5w-30) you can find, run it at a fast idle, then change it. You need to get this water out of the engine quickly- dont let it sit around for a week while you ponder what to do.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Ayuh,... But by Your discriptions, you haven't Hydro-locked....
That doesn't fit what would be expected, if backwash was the Problem...

Did you get the transom especially Deep when loading,..?? That could explain it...
Otherwise,... I'd be Lookin' at the Manifolds,+ risers.... They 94s, Right,..??
Sweetwater, or Salt history,..??
Are any of the sparkplugs Exceptionally Clean,..??

Ok, so I'm making a little progress. I pulled the oil again and put it in clear gallon jugs. Apparently Rislone mixed with oil turns a light greenish which (for me) was quickly confused for another case of milky oil. Put straight oil in, ran at the dock up to temp + 5 minutes and checked again. Oil looked good.

In the process of getting this done I notice a VERY small amount of water seepage at this spacer that goes between the exhaust manifold and riser (all are Stainless Marine products...that were on when I got the boat 12/07). Pulled the riser and could see where it looked like water backwashed. There was also a very small amount of water still in the bottom of the manifold. I got that out with a towel. I'll need to order more gaskets so I can put everything back together and see if it holds.

To answer your other questions. The transom was loaded deeper than usual, since I usually boat with only one passenger rather than three additional guys. Also, when I mentioned the waves being 2-4 feet, I mean when measuring from calm lake height (so actually 6-8 feet from peak to valley).

The boat is a 94 but the exhaust is aftermarket and are probably around five years old. The boat has never been within 300 miles of salt water. None of the spark plugs were especially clean, but you could see beads of water on them when they were pulled.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Sealant on the threads of the head bolts that pass into the water jacket?? Rislone, for those who are not aware of it, is an extremely high detergency, 5 weight engine oil that has been around for decades. It is an excellent product that has outlived it's usefulness in modern day engines that live on much better oils. That said, there are still applications for it and cleaning up a gunked up engine is one of them. Three quarts to a change is overkill but one quart as a replacement for one quart of engine oil is ok to actually run the engine. SeaFoam is a cleaning agent and not intended to be used as a lubricant in high concentrations.

Yes sir! Sealant came on all the threads for the head bolts.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Ok, more testing done and more progress made.

The cooling system held pressure, as did the exhaust manifolds on both sides. I was talking with my welder about how strange it was to get water seepage at the riser/manifold joint since the Stainless Marine (SM) setup is just a flange rather than a water passage.

"What about those welds?" he chuckled.

Ah, yes, "those welds". Apparently whoever did this exhaust system had good intentions with the welds. And thus contributed at least a few bricks to paving my road to hell.

SM offers a few options for SBC risers, one "wet", on "dry", and I think a captain's call. The first owner got the "wet" system and attempted to turn it into a dry system by welding a 3.5" tube to the exhaust projection on the SM riser, then welding a 4" tube to the outside diameter of the riser. It's hard to describe if you haven't seen one, and I'll try to get some pics later.

For far so good, assuming one can weld. This guy couldn't. I didn't know any better when I got the thing (since it was uniformly terrible) but as soon as I took them into the welding shop the guy laughed. The welder's idea was that the guy tried to stick weld everything and had to keep going over it since he probably kept burning through. And since there's only 1/4" water jacket all around that'd be pretty easy to do if you aren't a professional (or at least experienced). So, while he was busy trying to redo mistakes on the outside of the water jacket, he was burning through the inside (into the exhaust) and couldn't see it. Effectively turning a soon-to-be "dry" system "wet" again.

To test this theory my welder suggested plugging the water intake fitting on the riser, then standing it on end and filling the water jacket with water. I did that and not too long after I started filling it with water I saw a fair amount of water coming out of the exhaust (where it mates with the manifold). Tried to do the same on the other side (stbd.) and it held water overnight.

Another case of finding something a certain way and it being incorrect!

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

So if I understand what's happening, you're getting water into the exhaust. But you're NOT getting a hydrolock when trying to start? If so, you must have a cyl with no rings!!

 

[Knightgang]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

So if I understand what's happening, you're getting water into the exhaust. But you're NOT getting a hydrolock when trying to start? If so, you must have a cyl with no rings!!

Or, a sloppy piston or even possibly all rings lined up, incorrectly...

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

So if I understand what's happening, you're getting water into the exhaust. But you're NOT getting a hydrolock when trying to start? If so, you must have a cyl with no rings!!

Rings. Where do the rings go?

What you describe is exactly what's happening. According to the Merc bulletin "Gasoline Engines and Water Intrusion" posted earlier:

"Water in oil and on top of pistons...then water got on top of the pistons and ran past the rings into the oil pan while the engine was not running...
A marine engine?s cooling water and exhaust mix at the end of the exhaust elbow on the engine. Because of this, the engine?s exhaust system is where water gets back into the engine the easiest...Under certain conditions, a fine mist or droplets of water can be drawn backward into
the exhaust passage of the exhaust elbow while the engine is idling. They can travel backward until they ?wet? the vertical exhaust passage. When the engine is shut off, these droplets flow downward and collect in the exhaust manifold runners that go to the cylinder head...Gen+ V6 and V8 engines have more valve overlap than the older engines. This ?valve overlap? coupled with the ?tuning? of the boat?s exhaust system can cause water ingestion. Valve overlap is more likely to cause water ingestion at idle or low engine rpm than it is at higher engine rpm."

And, on boats with thru hulls they even recommend:

"Engines with thru-hull exhaust systems can have a ?tuning? effect. Exhaust hose length, 45, or 90 fittings, location of collector and/or muffler and the thru-hull exhaust tip all can affect water ingestion.The only way to test for this condition is to monitor the amount of water that collects in the runners of the exhaust manifold after idling for 45 minutes."

So on the port side, which was supposed to be welded to make a dry exhaust, the welder most likely burned through so the water comes through the exhaust passage not far after the elbow. With a 383 and a non stock cam this could easily cause reversion. At least that's the theory.

I guess we'll know after I get the risers back and bolt them up.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Or, a sloppy piston or even possibly all rings lined up, incorrectly...

The pistons are forged, and I would hope the machine shop isn't in the business of misaligning rings. I could have done that myself .

 

[Maclin]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Water can get past the rings into the oil pan but it should take a while, a LONG while. Weeks in my mind, just my opinion. I have pulled junkyard engines apart and water was still on top of the pistons.

 

[Bronc Rider]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Water can get past the rings into the oil pan but it should take a while, a LONG while. Weeks in my mind, just my opinion. I have pulled junkyard engines apart and water was still on top of the pistons.

I agree, the water will take a good while to go into the oil pan.
As some have already pointed out, the engine would hydrolock if the cylinders were full of water.

 

[jtybt]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

I was wondering if the water in the oil problem has been cleared up? Was it actually water? or the risolene?

Also, do you have full fresh water cooling?

Come to think of it Stainless Marine has a different manifold to riser joint. Is there internal or external water passages between the manifold and riser? I've never seen one up close.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Water can get past the rings into the oil pan but it should take a while, a LONG while. Weeks in my mind, just my opinion. I have pulled junkyard engines apart and water was still on top of the pistons.

I agree and have had an engine in the garage for months that still was wet on top.

That said, would the speed the water got past the rings be different if the rings weren't yet fully seated (i.e., during break-in)?

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

I was wondering if the water in the oil problem has been cleared up? Was it actually water? or the risolene?

Also, do you have full fresh water cooling?

Come to think of it Stainless Marine has a different manifold to riser joint. Is there internal or external water passages between the manifold and riser? I've never seen one up close.

It looks like (based on putting the old oil in clear gallon jugs) it was just Rislone mixed with regular oil; there didn't appear to be any separation of the water on the bottom. To prevent further confusion, all the oil changes since have been with normal oil so I can read it easier.

I engine is raw water cooled, but the boat is in fresh water. I think what you were referring to are those closed cooling systems, right? If so, it's not one of those. That would make my life easier as I could just watch for a drop in coolant level.

The SM system is an external water passage between the manifold and riser. A 1" hose connects the water out of the manifold into the riser and the actual joint that physically connects them is simply a round flange.

 

[Maclin]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

would the speed the water got past the rings be different if the rings weren't yet fully seated (i.e., during break-in)?

Not much if any in my opinion if all is well regarding bore and piston and ring sizes. Have you ever tapped a fresh piston into a bore? the rings make it pretty tight if it is right.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Not much if any in my opinion if all is well regarding bore and piston and ring sizes. Have you ever tapped a fresh piston into a bore? the rings make it pretty tight if it is right.

Tapped a few used ones out in my day, but never put any in. I do recall reading that putting them in requires a soft face hammer so I'd imagine the fit is tight.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

It appears that you may not have had water in the oil in much of an amount.

Just change it and run it!

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

It appears that you may not have had water in the oil in much of an amount.

Just change it and run it!

I think there was just enough to cause it to get milky; in any event it was well under a quart.

As soon as the risers get back from the welder and I'm feeling a bit better I'll throw them back on and report back.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Progress. Kinda.

I was talking to a buddy of mine about it (who lives much closer to the marina) after having it resolved (or so I thought) and the problem coming back. He was able to get out there with a compressor and isolate and pressurize the cooling system.

There was an audible leak. Then, with the system still plugged, a water hose was run to the intake manifold in place of the hose that's normally there. As fate would have it, the oil level rose and water would occasionally spurt out of the spark plug hole on the #1 cylinder.

Does this isolate the problem as an improperly sealing intake manifold gasket or are cracked head/block still on the table?

Also, what do you guys recommend on the intake manifold gasket? Merc, FelPro, etc.? It's a Vortec 350 (for reference purposes) if that matters.