Oil in water...getting it out

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Have you been doing this with the valve covers off? I.E. can you see the rockers for the #1 cyl when it's all pressured up? and if you can, can you see any water/bubbles etc there? It's beginning to appear that you may have a cracked head if you do not have a leaking gasket.


I think you can buy gaskets from NAPA. There's not much special about an intake gasket....

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Have you been doing this with the valve covers off? I.E. can you see the rockers for the #1 cyl when it's all pressured up? and if you can, can you see any water/bubbles etc there? It's beginning to appear that you may have a cracked head if you do not have a leaking gasket.


I think you can buy gaskets from NAPA. There's not much special about an intake gasket....

This was with the valve covers on. It can easily be done again with them off. With the covers off what exactly should a cracked head do?

I'll order up the gasket today. I've read of some people having trouble getting them to seal on Vortec's so I didn't know if you guys recommended one over the other.

 

[Knightgang]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Sounds like an busted intake gasket to me. Not hard to change, just a bit tedious. Pull the intake off and if it is hte gasket, you should be able to see where the leak is. On my Olds 3.1ltr, it was at the back side of the block, but id dumped about half the colling sustem water into the crankcase...

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Sounds like an busted intake gasket to me. Not hard to change, just a bit tedious. Pull the intake off and if it is hte gasket, you should be able to see where the leak is. On my Olds 3.1ltr, it was at the back side of the block, but id dumped about half the colling sustem water into the crankcase...

This is what I'm hoping. Now it's just a matter of finding the stuff. Just so I'm understanding, would a leaking intake manifold also be dumping water into the #1 cylinder? One of the water ports is fore wrt the offending cylinder so I'm hoping that intake gasket failure could cause water to run from the water port to the #1 cylinder intake.

What I don't want to have happen is to pull the intake manifold to replace the gaskets, and that not fix it. I suppose a simple compression test should tell me if head/head gasket is sealing properly, right?

Sorry for all of the basic questions; I'm still learning my way around.

 

[JustJason]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

would a leaking intake manifold also be dumping water into the #1 cylinder?

It sure can. I've seen it a few times on 4.3's (although it can happen on any V engine). Try to pull the intake off as delicately as you can because your going to want to look at the old intake gaskets and see if you can find evidence of water tracing. When you go to put a new gasket on make sure you brush the heads with a light coat of perfectseal, set the gaskets down and press them into place and let it set up a few minutes. Then brush perfectseal on the other side of the gasket, lay down your beads of RTV fore and aft, let that set 10-15 minutes, then install the intake by the book.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

This was with the valve covers on. It can easily be done again with them off. With the covers off what exactly should a cracked head do?

I'll order up the gasket today. I've read of some people having trouble getting them to seal on Vortec's so I didn't know if you guys recommended one over the other.

Well, the head would have to be cracked in such a way as to allow water into the area under the valve covers and/or into the #1 cyl. I do think it's a "stretch" that you even have a cracked head or a "blown" head gasket.....

The intake gaskets are pretty easy to change.

It would sure be nice to absolutely prove it's a manifold gasket. Removing the manifold carefully should allow you to see where it is leaking.

 

[Maclin]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

I have not seen it but have read about the intake's water passage corroding away on the inside and letting water into the fuel/air plenum and also right into the block.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

It sure can. I've seen it a few times on 4.3's (although it can happen on any V engine). Try to pull the intake off as delicately as you can because your going to want to look at the old intake gaskets and see if you can find evidence of water tracing. When you go to put a new gasket on make sure you brush the heads with a light coat of perfectseal, set the gaskets down and press them into place and let it set up a few minutes. Then brush perfectseal on the other side of the gasket, lay down your beads of RTV fore and aft, let that set 10-15 minutes, then install the intake by the book.

More gems of wisdom in the signature..."sorting through what it isn't". That helped on this. First started at the exhaust and found a riser with a leak (actually it was improperly welded, but don't get me started on that) and turned out to not be the problem but at least now it's welded correctly and eliminated as a source.

On that gasket, I figured out more specifically what the issue was on my thinking it was a rubber gasket.

The installed gasket is 27-807473A1 which is the thick plastic type with the blue silicone bead around everything and was one I was thinking about, and the other possible number is 27-17145 which is the paper type. The Gen+ apparently calls for the 807 but the listing shows 171 will work for all 305/350 19xx and newer.

Any suggestions or alternate part numbers? The local Napa isn't like every other Napa I've been to, where the people know engines and are helpful beyond looking stuff up in a computer.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Well, the head would have to be cracked in such a way as to allow water into the area under the valve covers and/or into the #1 cyl. I do think it's a "stretch" that you even have a cracked head or a "blown" head gasket.....

The intake gaskets are pretty easy to change.

It would sure be nice to absolutely prove it's a manifold gasket. Removing the manifold carefully should allow you to see where it is leaking.

All of this is a "stretch". Since I'm now into the realm of things I paid to have professionally done I'm hoping it's something stupid so I can just call the machine shop up irritated, but not completely PO'd. This thing is a fresh rebuild (including the heads) so if it turns out being the heads that'll be another conversation I hopefully won't be forced to have.

On the gaskets, the 27-807473 is in fact a plastic type gasket with a blue bead around the ports but I'm pretty sure the machine shop didn't have perfect seal around so who knows what, if anything was used. That gasket, as well as the head gasket are actually GM parts (when I got them they still had the GM # on the package) but I don't know what I did with the paper I wrote the cross reference on.

Should I give this gasket another shot? Maybe this time adding perfect seal.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

I have not seen it but have read about the intake's water passage corroding away on the inside and letting water into the fuel/air plenum and also right into the block.

The manifold is brand new, well it was a few running hours ago. I hope Lake Erie is still freshwater enough to not cause that to happen this quickly. That said, I have seen this on aluminum manifolds run in brackish.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Ok, I'm trying to get everything lined up and wanted to clear up a few things about perfect seal and torque.

Torque:

Weiand 8502 is the manifold. Weiand suggests 12-15 ft.-lbs. torque (according to tech on the phone, even though they couldn't pull up an installation sheet for that manifold).

Mercruiser manual suggests 18 ft.-lbs. per SM#24.

Torque to the low value or the high value?

Sealant ab/use:

I think putting perfect seal around the water ports is for non Gen+ (non Vortec) based on SM#17 and SM#24. The gaskets (not the paper type) apparently have enough with the blue bead around everything.

That said, would PS, RTV, etc. hurt anything? Or, install it dry and keep fingers crossed it doesn't leak...again.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Any takers on the above?

By the way, and for reference, the Mercruiser part #27-807473A1 I mentioned earlier crosses to GM #12561347.

 

[Knightgang]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Stev, I would troque to the higher values myself. when I did the intake gasket in my car, I did nto even put a torque wrench on it. Tightened them up to "Very Snug" then about another 1/2 turn. Been a year, no problems...

Using a RTV, Silicone Gasket maker or similar will not hurt anything. That said, do not put ALOT around the port holes, just a thin layer on bith sides so that it will form a nice seal. I am not sure about the 4.3, but on my 3.1, I had to use RTV to seal the front and back of the valley, intake to block. The intake set was only for the intake to head seal...

I work part time at Orielly Auto parts, and I can cross the numbers fro you tomorrow when I go in if you want me to... let me know to that I can write them down and take them with me...

 

[JustJason]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

I'd stick with perfectseal or 3M gasket adheasive. As far as TQ. If weiland is the manufactorer of the manifold, stick with what they tell you. You don't want to crack a manifold.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

I'd stick with perfectseal or 3M gasket adheasive. As far as TQ. If weiland is the manufactorer of the manifold, stick with what they tell you. You don't want to crack a manifold.

PS I have laying around so that will be easy. The only reason I asked is because the manual didn't specify to use any sealant on Gen + engines since the gaskets already have the rings. I'd rather ask before the fact because sometimes sealant is a big no-no (like on the gasket between the bellhousing and upper unit on Alpha's).

I'll try to track down the installation guide for the 8502 manifold. When I called the tech support the first thing the guy blurted out was "35 ft.-lbs; 11 ft.-lbs. is way too low". Then he put me on hold and came back with 12-15.

Hopefully I won't find that the machine shop torqued to 35 ft.-lbs. and cracked the manifold!

 

[Knightgang]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Hopefully I won't find that the machine shop torqued to 35 ft.-lbs. and cracked the manifold!

I would hope not. But, if you think that may have happened, I would video tape a torque test before you remove the manifold, and if they are over torqued and the manifold is damaged, you will have grounds to go back to the machine shop for shotty work...

Good Luck

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

I would hope not. But, if you think that may have happened, I would video tape a torque test before you remove the manifold, and if they are over torqued and the manifold is damaged, you will have grounds to go back to the machine shop for shotty work...

Good Luck

Either way I'm now in the realm of stuff I paid to have done "professionally" so either way there's going to have to me a conversation about whatever it turns out being.

 

[JustJason]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

The only reason I asked is because the manual didn't specify to use any sealant on Gen +

I dunno what the manual says, and i'm to lazy to open and up and look. But my rule of thumb is every gasket except for hot gaskets (head, exhaust manifold and risers) gets perfectseal.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

I dunno what the manual says, and i'm to lazy to open and up and look. But my rule of thumb is every gasket except for hot gaskets (head, exhaust manifold and risers) gets perfectseal.

I'm with that.

We'll see what today holds.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

It's just an intake manifold. You could use a thin film of high temp RTV too.

Here's what I used on my last intake manifold install: Permatex #81724