Oil in water...getting it out

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Intake is off.

Ran pressurized water to the intake before pulling manifold and got same results as before (water occasionally dribbling out of #1 spark plug hole). With the manifold off I could see a little water sitting on top of the #1 spark plug hole. Not sure if that helps point to/eliminate anything but thought I'd add it. Just seemed weird to have water occasionally dribble out of spark plug hole then find it on top of intake valve.

Checked the gaskets and couldn't really tell anything. They're plastic type with seals around ports so there was no impression to check like on the paper gasket. It did look like the machine shop may have laid the bead of silicone down before placing the gasket, and there did not appear to be any thread sealant on inner intake bolts.

I'm thinking about switching to a FelPro paper gasket since I'm not sure reinstalling the same gasket would result in any difference.

Also, the block got decked during rebuild; not sure if I said that before but I'm trying to get all of the details on the table.

Thoughts?

 

[JJJ]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Find out how much the block was decked, if more than a few thousands then the intake or heads also need machined.

 

[Knightgang]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Well, finding water on top of the intake valve, to me, indicates that it is somehow leaking into the intake passage, either from a crack or lack of seal in the gasket, or from a crack in the intake. If it were the head, I would not think you would find it on top of the intake valve... Just my guess...

Let us know what else you find...

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Find out how much the block was decked, if more than a few thousands then the intake or heads also need machined.

The machine shop that did the short block said they decked it but not enough to require the intake or heads be machined. He said they would have stamped how much they took off...I'll have to see if I can find it.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Well, finding water on top of the intake valve, to me, indicates that it is somehow leaking into the intake passage, either from a crack or lack of seal in the gasket, or from a crack in the intake. If it were the head, I would not think you would find it on top of the intake valve... Just my guess...

Let us know what else you find...

That's my thinking, but what was weird was water leaking out #1 plug hole every 30 seconds or so.

Pulling the intake didn't reveal any cracks. There did appear to be some slight pitting around the coolant passages in the head, which may have been just enough to prevent the plastic+rubber intake gasket from sealing.

Intake is back on, this time with a paper type gasket and RTV.

Will post later with more results.

 

[Knightgang]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Good luck. It is possible that during assembly, one of the seals rolled as the intake was tightened down and that caused a small leak. If it was not torqued enough or the seal rolled into the pitted area, that could also have caused the leak there...

I would have covered that pitted area with JB weld and sanded smooth to eleminate the pitting and helped ensure a good seal.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Good luck. It is possible that during assembly, one of the seals rolled as the intake was tightened down and that caused a small leak. If it was not torqued enough or the seal rolled into the pitted area, that could also have caused the leak there...

I would have covered that pitted area with JB weld and sanded smooth to eleminate the pitting and helped ensure a good seal.

That's my thinking on the seals. Since you're supposed to install them dry I think they work less effectively the further you are from a perfectly machined surface.

I've got mixed feelings on products like JB and MarineTex. That said, JB-ing the pits probably would pass here, but they seriously weren't that bad. I am skeptical that I would have been able to make it much better and then I'd be concerned about not getting crud and sanding residue everywhere. If it came down to it - and I'm sure almost everyone else would disagree with me - I'd be more inclined to pull the head to have it cleaned up so I could put it back in and forget it.

This build should have be right from the start so if I'm getting into JB then someone dropped the ball.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Well, the intake manifold turned out to be fine. It appears to be a cracked block.

Before putting everything back on I decided to do another water pressure test.

With the piston near TDC no water accumulates on top of the piston, but the oil level rises. With the piston near BDC the oil level stays the same but water accumulates on top of the piston (to the point where I can stick a thin flexible tube in the spark plug hole, down the cylinder, and suck water through the tube).

Before I stop at the machine shop to break my foot off in the owner's @$$, could this possibly be anything other than a crack in the cylinder wall?

 

[Knightgang]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Stev, it sounds to me that is what it is from what you are describing with the piston movement. With the piston at BDC, you should be able to see the water seeping into the cylinder from the sidewall. I would definetly try to isolate and locate the crack for sure before I went to the owner...

Was this a block he supplied, or was it your block and he just rebuilt it...Either way, he should have checked the block to ensure it was good and free of cracks. Good luck with him...

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Stev, it sounds to me that is what it is from what you are describing with the piston movement. With the piston at BDC, you should be able to see the water seeping into the cylinder from the sidewall. I would definetly try to isolate and locate the crack for sure before I went to the owner...

Was this a block he supplied, or was it your block and he just rebuilt it...Either way, he should have checked the block to ensure it was good and free of cracks. Good luck with him...

I can't see anything internally since the motor is still together but I have it isolated to a particular cylinder and range of motion.

This was a block I supplied but he "thoroughly checked and magna-fluxed it". At this point I'm getting into labor to get the motor out and back in (again) so even if he supplied a block and re-did everything I don't know that I should trust his work. We'll see what he say but I hope, for his sake, that he's a reasonable business owner.

 

[Knightgang]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Sorry, I thought you had already removed the heads also... My misread...

Once the heads are off, you should be able to find the crack...

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

I'll have to get in touch with him tomorrow to get a feel for whether or not he wants to handle this between us two gentlemen.

In the meantime, I don't want to get into ripping anything apart because a) I paid it to be done right the first time so I shouldn't have to, and b) it minimizes the finger pointing when it's time to accept blame.

 

[circuit19]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

I just read a few of the remedies that people have mentioned and haven't seen anyone mention the best way to make sure there is no more water in your oil system. Get a pump from the local parts house and pump all the fluids out of the oil pan and anywhere else that may hold oil(i.e.reservoirs etc.) You'll save time and money by not having to keep changing oil and filters. As far as there even being a mix of water in the engines oil system I think you should follow the advice of a few of the people who mentioned the few usual culprits- head gaskets,freeze plugs,cracked block-good luck and I hope it turns out to be much less than I believe it may be.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

I'll have to get in touch with him tomorrow to get a feel for whether or not he wants to handle this between us two gentlemen.

In the meantime, I don't want to get into ripping anything apart because a) I paid it to be done right the first time so I shouldn't have to, and b) it minimizes the finger pointing when it's time to accept blame.

Yes. If you want him to cover anything or help you, You REALLY need to haul the whole mess over to him and have him do some checks.

I have a really hard time believing a reputable experienced machine shop owner would put an engine back together with a cracked block.

$-hit can happen but he should at least be given a chance to make it good if he's willing.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Yes. If you want him to cover anything or help you, You REALLY need to haul the whole mess over to him and have him do some checks.

I have a really hard time believing a reputable experienced machine shop owner would put an engine back together with a cracked block.

$-hit can happen but he should at least be given a chance to make it good if he's willing.

I'm going to try and make arrangements for the engine to get pulled this weekend, assuming he doesn't want to first go for a ride to confirm it's not overheating, etc. This really isn't a good week for any BS since a family friend was slain last week in CA while talking on the phone with her mother who lives here in OH. So I'm really hoping we can handle this is a reasonable, productive manner.

That said, I'm not at all intending to approach him in an inflammatory manner. I'll see if he'll take the motor and check it out to confirm my diagnosis. From there I just want it done CORRECTLY, like I paid him to do the first time. If he confirms it's a cracked block then I'd ideally like for him to stand behind his work and make it good. Heck, if he told me the block was cracked when he supposedly checked it I would have been happy to foot the bill for another one. Now that I'm getting into having the motor pulled again, I think I'm starting out on the short end of the stick.

I went to this guy because he was recommended as "trustworthy". He'll be given the chance to make good on this voluntarily. The choice is his as to how he wants to play it.

On the bright side, at least I don't have to winterize the engine this year

 

[Knightgang]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Stev,

Give us an update. The Poll htread about the sleeving got closed, so I wanted to know what you ended up doing. Is he installing the sleeve, (his cost), or are you having the block replaced (shared cost???).

Let us know... I need closure...

 

[cr2k]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

If the block is the problem and he missed the crack, I would bet he would go for replacing it but the cost of a replacement block would probably fall on you since it would have anyway if he had found the crack at the time he should have. But I would hope he would cover the cost to swap parts over to the new block or a fair split anyway. I don't think it would be unfair to discuss some credit towards the 2nd r&r of the engine either.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Stev,

Give us an update. The Poll htread about the sleeving got closed, so I wanted to know what you ended up doing. Is he installing the sleeve, (his cost), or are you having the block replaced (shared cost???).

Let us know... I need closure...

Somehow the e-mails alerting me to thread updates found their way into my "spam" box and I just accidentally stumbled across this.

Happy Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Years

He ended up disassembling, cleaning, sleeving, rehoning, and reassembling the short block free of charge. And providing a set of head gaskets (they ended up not being stainless steel so I'll have to get the right ones; I have the GM part number in the garage somewhere).

After talking to a few local builders and doing some research, it became apparent to me that I likely would have opted the first time for sleeving after considering that it's a perfectly acceptable repair and would be a better option than spending a few hundred extra on a block. When this was first unfolding I had a different stance since I wasn't pleased about having a cracked block.

After I calmed down, and the "good idea fairy" left, I realized that if he's standing behind sleeving then at the end of the day I'm out nothing and if I'm having this problem again this season the block is on him.

I took the labor for getting it out and putting it back in as a loss. At least this gives me practice, in case I'm sitting around some idle weekend and want to yank my engine for no reason.

I do have pictures of the milkshake mess, along with pictures of the piston deposits and the crack; when I find where those pictures are, I'll post them.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

If the block is the problem and he missed the crack, I would bet he would go for replacing it but the cost of a replacement block would probably fall on you since it would have anyway if he had found the crack at the time he should have. But I would hope he would cover the cost to swap parts over to the new block or a fair split anyway. I don't think it would be unfair to discuss some credit towards the 2nd r&r of the engine either.

As it turns out he would have replaced the block for free too. I didn't find this out until I went to go pick it up, but the guy has engine blocks for days. I mean two-car garages full of every thing imaginable. I suppose in a way the sleeve is better since it corrects the flaw in the existing block - a thin cylinder; dealing with the devil I know going forward.

While I'm not necessarily excited about the 2nd r&r, that's part of being a boater.

Also, the other machine shop I dealt with originally (the shop that put the heads on and did the valves) didn't check the clearance between the stroker rods and the windage tray. So the rods took out a few thousanths of material from the tray. When we first fired the engine up in the boat my mechanic thought he heard a faint knocking. It didn't sound like bearing knock, or the crank hitting the oil pan, so we figured it was the forged pistons making noise. Turns out it was two rod nuts hitting the tray. Point being - sometimes people will talk a lot of trash about a place that ends up doing the right thing, and the same people will talk up a place that doesn't pay attention to detail.

Oh, and the other thing I learned - being a volunteer firefighter is scarcely a prerequisite to being an engine builder based on the fact that "you'd trust a firefighter, wouldn't you?" Unfortunately in this economy, people are willing to say almost anything to convince you to send work their way. For what little my opinion matter, I hope the takeaway from this is to support those who do the right thing.

 

[pac city]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

when you install the intake , go by the the tourqe pattern, go on the light side of spec, medium locktight on all intake bolts . and assemble dry on seals,(gaskets),. good luck..