One thing after another...

[KB_85_V20]

Re: One thing after another...

Sorry its been so long for a reply, ive been out of town. The wiring would make sense, excepth that, now i cant get any spark at all. with or without the kill switches. Thats why I'm scratching my head. New/used timer base and all 6 coils are in the mail, it was too good a deal to pass up on ebay, all for $50. we'll see after that.

 

[jonesg]

Re: One thing after another...

Put a meter on the kill wire, if theres any voltage the power pack is dead.

If theres no voltage present on the kill wire (black/yellow) with the ignition key in all positions unplug the control harness and see if spark returns, it could still be ( and probably is) the kill circuit.

Any voltage on the kill circuit wire will zonk the power pack, so if thats the problem don't install another until you find the short, probably in the keyswitch or a chafed wire.

Keyswitch should be kept neat as possible, disconnect battery if working on that wiring, I brushed all my terminals with liquid elec tape to seal it all up.

 

[KB_85_V20]

Re: One thing after another...

Thanks for those tips Jones. Ill check that stuff tomorrow when its not raining. Also one thing to add is that i've been doing these spark tests with the key in all positions and kill switches plugged and unplugged. through all of these ive been jumping the starter so wouldnt that take the key out of the equation all together?

 

[mikesea]

Re: One thing after another...

first,slow down,you parts chnging way too fast,no disrespect.you say you accidently started it and it ran decent,then you say it didnt cool,when you accidently ran it did you have water to the eng.if not,you probably heated the impeller and its history,you say you lost spark again,well,i agree with the post that says your key switch is suspect,it happens alot,as the keyswitch sends ground to kill the packs,you had trouble on one side,that could indicate a pack,a pack does a bank,you also have neutral safty in control box that could give u trouble,what 2 do first,get a spark tester,pull all plugs,disconnect the main harness,the red plug,jump positive to the starter,as eng cranks check your spark tester,WAIT,be sure no fuel goes to engine because as it blows out thru plug hole it could be ignited by the spark tester,you will likley find spark,then proceed to the keyswitch after hooking red harness up, making sure all wires connected are not touching anythin,especially the black one with yel stripe,disconnect the blk/yel and check 4 spark,if you have spark,your switch is likely bad,but you could have a bad harness,so disconnect the plugs from the packs with the black/yel wires,with the black/yel back on the terminal on the switch see if you have spark if you have spark trouble in the harness,i have seen corrosion buildup in harbesses that allow enough grnd to kill or give problems,take it slow,ask alot of questions,i enjoy this ,as many do,we all lean together,idea is to save money,not spend it on un needed parts,we will get you goin,dont worry about that,patience ,dont be concerned with compression right now

 

[KB_85_V20]

Re: One thing after another...

OK. just to give anybody reading this a brief history to make it easier:
1. motor overheats in water but runs fine on muffs
2. changed impeller and housing because silver cup had spun and blocked the hole
3. engine wouldn't start
4. troubleshooting led to disconnecting kill switches.
5. engine ran 10 to 15 seconds but wouldn't pump water so i shut it down(see 5a)
5a. installed impeller using wrong key so it kicked the key out.
6. changed drive key. checked with ratchet and muffs and it DOES pump water.
7. engine wouldn't start. = NO SPARK.
8. did spark check under following conditions jumping the starter everytime:
8a. with and without kill switches
8b. with and without key on
8c. with and without plugs installed
8d. with and without red harness plug installed
9. replaced BOTH power packs
10. repeated steps 8a-8d. STILL NO SPARK.
11. bought used timer base and 6 coils on ebay for $50. As of this posting they are not installed due to inclement weather.

If anybody has ever had a wife that said don't buy a boat, but you did anyways and bought a lemon then you can imagine how much I am hearing about this right now so I need some help!

 

[14ftgrumman]

Re: One thing after another...

When you have muffs on an engine, the water pressure will force the water throughout the cooling system. Turning it over with a ratchet would serve no purpose. If it started on muffs, you should not be overheating as water is circulating.

Track down your electrical problem first.

 

[wilde1j]

Re: One thing after another...

What did you do after #5 (it ran) to the ignition system? The motor didn't go from running to not w/o something happening.

 

[KB_85_V20]

Re: One thing after another...

Thats just it... I didn't do anything at all. I made Zero changes to anything electrical. And the water pressure fom the hose would not push water up a 2 foot tube and out the top in spurts in exact coordination with my ratchet turns, so i will assume that the impeller being turned by my ratchet WAS doing something to test the functionality

 

[14ftgrumman]

Re: One thing after another...

By turning it with a ratchet, you were rotating the impeller so that water could be pushed up the tube from the next set of vanes in the impeller. You can't crank the engine fast enough to bring water from the pump to the powerhead.

Some tests done with ign switch in "run", some done in"start" spme in "off". Fully charged barrery. Battery connections clean. All grounds clean.

Do all your testing in the order that manual describes.

First, get it running, than take care of running hot.

Just trying to help.

 

[KB_85_V20]

Re: One thing after another...

So... after rewiring the lights and other misc. junk I decided to take a look at the timer base after all. And after waiting a couple days for the weather to break and the flywheel to pop, I finally got a look at it. First, 2 of the 6 magnets were loose and still attached to the stator. BTW whats a good way to re-attach those? The others look like they were JB Welded in, will that work again? should I break them all loose if possible and start them all over? Second, besides the fact that its not good, can anyone tell me what the black shiny goop is that is dripping from the stator. there isn't a whole lot of it and i cleaned it off any contact points but what is that stuff? And Third. the timer base had some holes in the inside of it and it just looked worn down pretty good so I replaced it with the one I bought on Ebay. I'm thinking these might all be pretty good reasons why I wasn't getting spark. I HOPE.

 

[mikesea]

Re: One thing after another...

jb weld will work fine,remove all the old crap and be sure to clean all grease etc.yep the insulator crud heated and dripped,hopefully after all you did already,and these items,you will be running ok

 

[KB_85_V20]

Re: One thing after another...

Yeah hopefully. I got a pretty good feeling about this one. I'm off to the parts store for some JB Weld.

 

[KB_85_V20]

Re: One thing after another...

Impatience has gotten the best of me. I did not think to bench test the new(used) timer base before I put it on. That thing was deader than last weeks hamburger. I've been had. But the old one still measured good so I put it back on and I'm only getting spark on #1 and #4. Upon further investigation I have found the stator to be bad. The book says to measure charge coil resistance across both wires on the 2 terminal plug going to the power pack. I only got 772 ohms. The corrective action is to replace the stator if its not 970 +/- 15 ohms. My question is this... Will that be causing my erratic spark or is it still likely something else. Power packs and coils are replaced and timer base is tested. kill circuit is not shorting and I've been testing without the switches hooked up. This is probably the last thing I can buy for the boat because I've said "this one last part will fix it" to my wife for the last 3 parts. I've decided tht using my 5 dollar multimeter is smarter than throwing hundreds of dollars blindly.

 

[bktheking]

Re: One thing after another...

You disconnected the 2 terminal plug and tested it with jumper leads? What does the stator look like. From what I have read a bad stator can cause the problems you are seeing.

Here are some tests:

This is for quickstart engines, don't think your's is:

No fire at all:
1. Disconnect the black/yellow kill wires AT THE PACK and retest. If the engines now has fire, the kill circuit has a fault-possibly the keyswitch, harness or shift switch.
2. Disconnect the yellow wires from the stator to the rectifier and retest. If the engine fires, replace the rectifier.
3. Check the stator resistance. You should read approximately 1000 ohms from the brown wire to the brown/yellow wires and 100 ohms from the orange to orange/black.
4. Check the DVA output from the stator. You should have a reading of at least 150V or more from the brown wire to the brown/yellow wire (while connected to the pack) on each bank and at least 12V or more from the orange to orange/black.
5. Check the timer bases resistance from the white wire to the blue, green and purple wires. Reading should be approximately the same on all (Typically 1 to 2 M ohms). If the readings are off, reverse the meter leads and retest to see if the readings straighten out.
6. Check the DVA output from the timer base. A reading of at least 0.5V or more from the white wire to the blue, green and purple wires (while connected to the pack) is needed to fire the pack.
7. Check the cranking RPM. A cranking speed less than 250-RPM will not allow the system to fire properly.

No fire or intermittent on One Cylinder:
1. Check the timer bases resistance from the white wire to the blue, green and purple wires. Reading should be approximately the same on all (Typically 1 to 2 M ohms). If the readings are off, reverse the meter leads and retest to see if the readings straighten out.
2. Check the DVA output from the timer base. A reading of at least 0.5V or more from the white wire to the blue, green and purple wires (while connected to the pack) is needed to fire the pack.
3. Check the DVA output on the orange wires from the power pack while connected to the ignition coils. You should have a reading of at least 150V or more. If the reading is low on one cylinder, disconnect the orange wire from the ignition coil for that cylinder and reconnect it to a load resistor. Retest. If the reading is now good, the ignition coil is likely bad. A continued low reading indicates a bad power pack.

No fire or Intermittent on One Bank:
1. Check the stator resistance. You should read approximately 1000 ohms from the brown wire to the brown/yellow wires and 100 ohms from the orange to orange/black.
2. Check the DVA output from the stator. You should have a reading of at least 150V or more from the brown wire to the brown/yellow wire (while connected to the pack) on each bank.
3. Check the DVA output on the orange wires from the power pack while connected to the ignition coils. You should have a reading of at least 150V or more. If the reading is low on one bank, disconnect the orange wires from the ignition coil for that bank and reconnect them to a load resistor. Retest. If the reading is now good, one or both of the ignition coils are likely bad. A continued low reading indicates a bad power pack.

This is for CD , this is what you have I believe


No fire or intermittent on One Cylinder:
1. Check the timer bases resistance from the white wire to the blue, green, pink and purple wires. Reading should be 38-42 ohms.
2. Check the DVA output from the timer base. A reading of at least 0.5V or more from the white wire to the blue, green, pink and purple wires (while connected to the pack) is needed to fire the pack.
3. Check the DVA output on the orange wires from the power pack while connected to the ignition coils. You should have a reading of at least 150V or more. If the reading is low on one cylinder, disconnect the orange wire from the ignition coil for that cylinder and reconnect it to a load resistor. Retest. If the reading is now good, the ignition coil is likely bad. A continued low reading indicates a bad power pack.

No fire or Intermittent on One Bank:
1. Check the stator resistance. You should read approximately 500 ohms from the brown wire to the brown/yellow wire.
2. Check the DVA output from the stator. You should have a reading of at least 150V or more from the brown wire to the brown/yellow wire (while connected to the pack). Also check DVA to engine ground from each brown wire and compare the readings. If one wire reads low while connected to the pack, swap the connections and see if the low reading stays on the same stator wire. If it does, the stator is bad.
3. Check the DVA output on the orange wires from the power pack while connected to the ignition coils. You should have a reading of at least 150V or more. If the reading is low on one bank, disconnect the orange wires from the ignition coil for that bank and reconnect them to a load resistor. Retest. If the reading is now good, one or both of the ignition coils are likely bad. A continued low reading indicates a bad power pack.

 

[KB_85_V20]

Re: One thing after another...

I don't have DVA meter but ive been using my regular meter as much as i can. The stator shows a little bit of rust on the center part but the copper wires all look good. there was black shiny crap coming out and I was told thats the isulation that melted and leaked out. Also my stator doesn't have orange and orange black wires, just 2 sets of brown and brown/yellow wires that go to the power packs, and then the two yellow wires that go to the regulator. The brown and brown/yellow wires gave me 772 Ohms.

 

[bktheking]

Re: One thing after another...

You should have-

2 x 2 wires going to each powerpack

2 x 4 wires going to each powerpack

Colours in my book are too hard to see so it's more of a visual, the one I can see is yellow/yellow brown, the one it says to test.

A set of wires going to the rectifier/regulator.


That black shiny crap that leaked out is a pretty good indicator that the stator is shot, I think you would be on the right track to replace that stator.

A reading of 770 is higher than 500 and lower than the 1000, doesn't sound good.

 

[KB_85_V20]

Re: One thing after another...

Yeah thats the answer that my pocketbook and I were trying to avoid but I'm sure its inevitable. Thanks for the input.

 

[wilde1j]

Re: One thing after another...

CDI is a good vendor source for stator (and other electronics for J/E motors) and less expensive than BRP OEM parts.

 

[bktheking]

Re: One thing after another...

KB read this-

http://www.cdielectronics.com/Portals/0/installsheet/173-3117.pdf

It's troubleshooting instructions from CDI, that is the part number you need for your stator, 173-3117.

I was going to suggest what they suggested, making up some leads to swap sides of the stator to the power packs to see if the coils fire on the other bank but I hadn't found any positive info until I found this article, this should narrow it down so you don't go and waste more money!!!

good luck

 

[KB_85_V20]

Re: One thing after another...

So I finally got a DVA meter. Well actually its the adapter from cdi. I've been playing with it and reading the manual and it says to take the measurements while the power pack is connected. Im measuring the 4 pin connector. Why does it need to be connected and how do I do that? I had an old power pack so I cut the 4pin connector off and used that to get to the wires easier and from the white to the blue, green, and purple. I've gotten 0.70, 0.45, 0.58 respectively on the port and 0.73, 0.47, 0.55 on the starboard. The book says 0.50 minimum. I haven't checked the brown and brown/yellow because its getting late, I'll do that in the morning and post the results then. But I'm still only getting spark on the #1 and #4 cylinders. Any thoughts?