Rebuild or Repower

[imported_LakeRunner]

I have a 1995 Force 70 that I just spent $750 to replace the stator and got a couple of months of great engine performance. Last run, the motor started rattling and seized up and left me stranded on the lake. This weekend I finally got time to look at the engine and pulled the plugs (I put new NGK plugs on when I replaced the stator). The top plug was fine, the second plug had a cracked insulator and the third one look as if the metal had fused. I also looked as if it threw a rod (There is a 1" by a 1/4" crack in the engine housing at the bottom. I also notice a grey sludge coming from the prop exhaust. I was able to get it running again but I get a lot of vibration and rattle now. Is it worth the rebuild or should I be looking at that new 4 stroke now? How much should I be looking at to get it rebuilt?

 

[steelespike]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

I think I would look to take whatever it would cost to repair it and use it as a down payment toward a new motor.I would take a close look at the new high tech. 2 strokes.Like the etech Evinrude.I feel even though most 4 strokes are fine motors there are just too many moving parts.Some say but look at auto engines they work fine.Sure they do but they usually run at about half there reccomended rpm.When was the last time you started your car and took off for a 20 or 30 minute 100 mph ride.<br /> An outboard is running full bore and could be doing only 35 mph.

 

[coleman kayak1]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

I'll second that suggestion.<br />Evinrude builds some good outboards- you may want to look at their 60 model, or (if your max capacity is high enough) the 90.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

if ya cant afford new you already have a new stator you can look into a reman powerhead from iboats or southwest. call about their core policy, some deduct for block,crank or rod damage. the 95 70 forsce was about as high tech as the rest of the non EFI motors of that time, it did not have any auto timing advance for cold start but other than that it was not designed much different than even some today, EFI and DFI excluded. after the stator change did you check the timing at WOT? it sounds like either the oiling system failed, the timing was to far advanced or the carb was clooged, could be a waterpump failure but by having aluminium transfered to the plug indicates overheat or detonation due to timing advance or lean fuel/air mix.

 

[Realgun]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

Personally I would repower if I could afford it.

 

[roscoe]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

email me if you decide to dump or part out the old one. sparrowhawk1 @ mac dot com

 

[imported_LakeRunner]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

Rodbolt, I think you hit on the head, I'm so use to thinking that a boat motor is like a lawn mower on steroids that I didn't take it in to get the timing checked. I just replaced the part and took off for the lake. I have the force repair manual but it didn't say anything about timing checks. I replaced the impeller and inspected and tested the WP before the stator failed. I could go either way but I wanted to see if it was feasable to put a rebuilt PH on. Even if I repower, the boat is only worth 3K. I see rebuilt PH's for sale on iBoats for 1.8K and that almost seems to be the best way to go.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

melted pistons are a symptom. if kept at the proper temp with the proper lube and below the max RPM the piston can safly travel and the spark is kept at the correct time the piston will last thousands of hours.<br /> not much technical difference from that motor to about any other carburated outboard today, still usues semi keystone rings, split sleeve bearings, a combination of roller and ball for the crank and rods, still uses reeds like todays carbed motors.<br /> about the biggest technology difference is the force used no automatic starting aids.<br /> lean out any modern outboard of any design or allow it to overheat or allow the timing to vary outside its limits and the results are usually a detonated piston.

 

[TimMattson]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

My boss rebuilds them and has one sitting by our test tank.....He will only warrenty it if carbs are done ,new wtr pump installed and proper break-in is done......A tach to verify correct propping is also a must.<br /> Ive seen him put a week + into most rebuilds and it is better if only one person does it all instead of the assy line work some bigger places do.They do paint them nicer ,but the use of quality parts and attention to detail is the key.<br /> Tim Mattson <br /> Sorensen Marine in Seattle

 

[imported_LakeRunner]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

Next time I have to replace a stator, I will make sure the timing is checked and set correctly. The motor starts and still runs, a little rough though so it's not a complete loss. Tim, how much is he asking for the PH? I have a marina that does all my work. I just choose to do the stator because I have all the tools I need to do it. The Force Service Manual assumes you know a lot more about Force engines and you know about assumes. This one bit me!

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

on average a v4-v6 rebuild will take me 25-30 hours, but that includes gearcase seals, all pistons and bearings, fuel lines carb job cooling system overhaul removal of any exaust covers for inspection. thats why on 15 year old motors I take a pass occasionally. to much corrosion to fight.<br />but like i said, melted pistons are symtoms not causes.

 

[imported_LakeRunner]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

Since the PH has a crack in it, I don't think it can be salvaged. So I will definitely need to get a new or remanu PH. I now understand why the best two days in boating are the day you buy a boat and the day you sale it. That's why I bought a used boat, to learn what to do and what not to do. Thanks to the Navy, they taught me how to drive and handle boats. Just not how to fix them. We left that up to the MM's (Machinist Mates for the non Navy folks). Thanks all for th support. Got a lot of work to get done before spring boating season. See ya on the water!

 

[imported_LakeRunner]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

OK, spring is here and the wife is bugging me about when I am going to get the boat repaired. So she found a 1978 Jonhnson 70HP on a boat that was damaged. The owner claims the motor runs good but wants to sell the boat and the motor because he has no time to repair the damage to the boat.(He hit a stump and almost took the motor of the transom) My question is that I currently have a 95 Force 70 mounted with tilt/trim and the Jonhson does not have tilt trim. Can I get a conversion kit to adapt this motor to my boat so I can use the Force tilt/trim? Is this feasible at all to attempt it?

 

[RRitt]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

well, you guys know I'm big on ebay. if I was in lake Runner's shoes then I'd patiently wait for a similar motor to go on the auction block near my home. Then I'd drive over to take a look and maybe bid on it. Force engines are worth more in pieces than whole. So I'd sell my old parts to pay for new.

 

[imported_LakeRunner]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

I promised Roscoe first crack at the parts, just tell me what and how much and I will pull it pack it and ship it.

 

[roscoe]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

Hi Lake Runner.<br />I don't think there is any way to use the old tnt on the Johnson.<br /><br />I'd hate to pass up a spare part (because you know thats the part that will break next week). But don't think I need any right now.<br />I have a spare of almost everything on my motor except the flywheel and the powerhead. The oile of spare parts takes up as much space in the garage as all my fishing gear !!!<br /><br />But thanks for the offer.

 

[imported_LakeRunner]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

So I will need to get a tnt for the johnson. i thought as much, I wanted ask the question just in case it was possible to use the force tnt on the johnson.

 

[imported_LakeRunner]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

I can't do you any good on the PH and as for the flywheel, well how many have you known to go bad! Thanks for the reply Roscoe, I just wanted to give you a crack at it first. After some further checking I found a PH in my price range from a reputable shop so I am going to investigate that. Since the guy was only asking 350 for the johnson, I thought I might explore the "what if's".

 

[imported_LakeRunner]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

I finally got my the PH off and took it in for evaluation. I will need to replace the crankshaft, rod bearings, leaf valves, rods and the number 3 piston but that's not the question. I found an 97 85HP Force powerhead and want to know if this will work on with the lower unit of my 95 70HP? The 85 horse powerhead looks like it would fit but I need to know for sure if it will work before I invest the dollars. I would rather replace than repair since Force parts are soooo expensive!

 

[RRitt]

Re: Rebuild or Repower

it seems to me, without any actual knowledge, that late model forces have a disproportiantely high number of failures as compared to their earlier ancestors. It could be that there were just many more of them sold and hence there are many more people asking for help in fixing them. However, that wouldn't be consistent with the number of product offerrings on Ebay. If many more late model Forces had been sold then Ebay parts would reflect a much greater number of late model used parts. But it does not. Quite the contrary. There seems to be a much greater availability of early model force and chrysler parts. Hence my conclusion is that by the mid-90's mercury's corner cutting program had become sufficiently large enough to render late model force engines as unreliable. As such, I would strongly resist the temptation to buy a late model force engine. Roscoe probably has insight based upon actual knowledge rather than speculation. But for now it seems to me that there are a ton of very old chrysler/force engines that still run fine and a ton of mercury/force engines that are dropping like flies.