Starmada Testing Laboratories

[ezmobee]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

Oh great, sure didn't take long to get from "hmm noodles may not be the best for the job" to "you are an irresponsible boob if you use them" :facepalm: Channeling jigngrub?

 

[barato2]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

amazing how that ACTUAL DATA works, eh? think the change could be due to learning that it would take maybe 200 noodles to float my Starchief? (and 400 if you add the fishing gear.....:redface IOW, you've been proven right on what you were saying all along on the noodles.

i don't throw terms like irresponsible around cuz there are too many mirrors around here.......

but i do think anyone who doesn't put SOME form of flotation into their boat when they're spending 100s or 1000s to restore it is askin for trouble. i mean, how you gonna sell it when the next MBS "fix" appears on CL if you have to tell buyers it ain't got no flotation and is thus illegal to use in most states?

 

[North Beach]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

Well the great thing about this bunch of folks is we now have enough people to chime in and offer up lots of opinions about just about everything. Since the Starcraft forums took off a couple of years ago we have covered many scenarios on many different boats between the bunch of us.

While I personally beleive that everything I did when restoring the Liquid Limo was the absolute smartest and best way to go (except maybe the lack of a larger belly fuel tank) I'm sure there are folks here who did things different and think their approach was the best way to go.

So what we now have is many different approaches to choose from when we do a new restore. I think that is great! You can go all out, or take the lesser expensive aproach-or go somewhere in between. Some people like red cars, others like blue.

Now if we could just come up with a test that would explain why in the heck someone would spend perfectly good money on an outboard motor when there are all of those obviously superior inboard/outboards out there hahahaha.......

 

[starcrafter65]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

Well the great thing about this bunch of folks is we now have enough people to chime in and offer up lots of opinions about just about everything. Since the Starcraft forums took off a couple of years ago we have covered many scenarios on many different boats between the bunch of us.

While I personally beleive that everything I did when restoring the Liquid Limo was the absolute smartest and best way to go (except maybe the lack of a larger belly fuel tank) I'm sure there are folks here who did things different and think their approach was the best way to go.

So what we now have is many different approaches to choose from when we do a new restore. I think that is great! You can go all out, or take the lesser expensive aproach-or go somewhere in between. Some people like red cars, others like blue.

Now if we could just come up with a test that would explain why in the heck someone would spend perfectly good money on an outboard motor when there are all of those obviously superior inboard/outboards out there hahahaha.......

Oh Jeez - Now it is ON like donkey kong!:facepalm:

 

[DirtyHarry83]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

I bring up a formula and Wamo. Do we know what a cubic foot of noodles will hold? There is a lot of air in those noodles. As noodles are less dense they should hold a good amount of weight in a cubic foot. As weird as this sounds could I request taking 1 foot by 1 foot by 1 foot amount of noodles possibly zip tied together and then apply that anchor? If not I understand and no sweat. It'll take me a while to getting around to do that kind of test but I'll be glad to make an attempt. I want to try and put this whole dispute to rest with a lot of information. Whether it's good or bad news for noodles.
I really wish I had access to a pool :facepalm: My friend got rid of his years ago.

I NEVER said go with no flotation. I am not insane. I also think that this boat will be with me forever, as I have a difficulty letting the first of anything go in my life.
What I was saying about being a responsible boater had everything to do with paying attention to weather and wave reports. Going out in 4 foot swells isn't brilliant in a boat with no free board. Even with flotation you're looking at a all day bilge run as from what I've seen these boats don't self bail. The weather, I didn't think I'd need to mention but an aluminum boat out in a T-storm scheduled day.... okay highest object in a large flat area and it's made of a very conductive material. :facepalm: I've been boating for 22 years and that may not be as much as quite a few of you but these few steps are what I listen to in order to avoid a bad trip. Six P's?

This brings me to another point, some of you may need to consider to add here. Dual bilge pumps to help cut down on a water issue. You should consider two for redundancy. Talk about something cheap in price and very easy to setup/install. They can do 500-1500 gallons per hour or even more for around 50 bucks or less.

Now that I am home and have a few minutes to myself I'll try and work on the numbers and try and find an ideal number. Although that's tough without knowing accurately the flotation of a cubic foot of noodles. I also want to find out for the Home Depot foam.

I do enjoy the spirited debate here. You're all a good group of guys that are really passionate about our boats.

 

[DirtyHarry83]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

After staring at the formula and re reading the rules to the formula I came up with what appears to be a reasonable answer.

If my boat weighed 1500lbs it would take roughly 20 cubic feet of noodles of a cubic noodle could hold 60lbs afloat.

Here is from what I can tell is our formula. I rounded the numbers a bit.
-1500 / 2.6 + 1500 = 924 / 60 = 16 x 1.33 = 20.46 So what I would need would be 20.46 cubic feet of noodle to keep my boat a float safely. I find what I wrote here a bit easier to read than the write out this guy did...

Note:1.33 is the constant for safety to be used in the formula.

My only concern and it's only to air caution for arguments sake. I don't have a sure way to verify that 1.33 should be a constant, I am only going by what the formula is stating.

List of objects in a typical boat
-I was told the hull of a 180 SS is around 800lbs? Correct that if I am wrong?
-Then the next largest surface area is our deck and it's made of wood we'll be guessing it's flotation rating would be .8?
That adds to flotation
-90 hp OB weighs what? 265 - 300lbs?
-Gas is less dense than water (floats on the surface) Depending on gas tank size you've got more flotation. Air in the tank helps as long as the vent does not go below water level.
-Any wood used to build consoles, front decking, casting platforms. All add flotation.
-Unworn Life jackets stowed away
-Throwing flotations (most boat cushions)
-Boat bumpers
-10lbs of led weights (Maybe more or less?)

I want to look at my coast guard plate again for how many persons weight.

Feel free to add to the list please. I want to try and get a total on flotation weight and "dead" weight.

 

[DirtyHarry83]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

I know I should just go get sleep but I am just so damn curious on this subject.

This guy laid out a nice template for flotation and it made sense to me.
http://www.oocities.org/georgeoasprynetcom/poolnoodle.html

This work was done by someone else but I am surprised my guess of 60lbs per square foot of flotation was pretty close.

pool noodles and the flotation information on the luger website.
Not so sure you should use your noodle on this one.

Here's why-----

The area of a circle is pi x R x R. The average noodle I have found is 2.5
inches in
diameter and has a 3/4 inch center hole. They are 60 inches long. Weight .25
pound per
noodle.

The volume of the noodle is 1.25x1.25x3.1415x60 which equals 4.91 Cu inches-the
center hole which is .375x.375x3.1415x60 which equals .441 Cu inches. Subtract
the
center hole out of the area of the noodle and the total flotation material
volume per
noodle is 268.14 cubic inches.

Divide a cubic ft (1728 Cu In) by 268.14 and you get 6.444 noodles per cubic ft.
6.444 noodles x .25 # = 1.6 # per cu ft.

A cubic foot of water weight approx 62 #. Which means you get 60.4 # of lift
per cubic
foot of pool noodle.

The weight of a leeward 16 ready to sail (as per Luger's documentation is 600 #.
Add
extra for anchor, cooler, Battery? misc. Maybe 700#???

700# divided by 60.4 # equals 11.589 or call it 11.6 cu ft of pool noodle for
the flotation
recommended on the web site. 11.6 x 6.44 equals 74.7 or 75 pool noodles.

I understand that the boat displaces water and is somewhat lighter when
submerged,
however----

Where the heck are you going to put 75 pool noodles in a Leeward?

The solid pool noodles (or pool logs) are much better, but darned expensive and
you still
have the problems with round pieces, so--

The alternative I have chosen is the blue DOW insulation board. It doesn't
"popcorn" like
the white Styrofoam does, and has less than 1 % water absorption, as it is used
as a below
ground insulation for buildings. A three inch by 24 inch by 96 inch sheet costs
18 dollars.
it weighs only 7 #s per sheet. Volume is 6912 cu inches. Divided by 1728 you
get 4 cu ft
per piece. That is 1.75 # weight per cu ft or lift of 60.25 # per cu ft. Only
slightly heavier
than a pool noodle, and it can be shaped to fill the seats and nose of the boat
nicely
without fighting the problems that occur when you are working with round pieces
that do
not occupy a "square" volume well, and noodles have that darned hole in the
middle that
makes the situation even worse.
Three of the 3 inch x 2ft x 8 ft pieces of insulation give well over 700
#'s lift, and I have
had no problems fitting all of it (with a bit of carving) into the Leeward seats
and the nose.

As the saying goes, My two cents worth.
If I have made a major miscalculation, yell back at me--I won't take offense.
1

So we have a reference to 60lb per cubic foot of noodle. Now we need to know the volume of noodles a boat can hold.
EZ you said you had trouble getting more than 79 just under the hull? Hrm. Any under the gunnels, bow plate, and stern storage space?
Pushing in as many noodles as the space can afford but also being sure that in the number of noodles really required.

Looking forward to more information.

 

[ezmobee]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

EZ you said you had trouble getting more than 79 just under the hull? Hrm. Any under the gunnels, bow plate, and stern storage space?

I put in 72 (3 cases of 24 ). This was my waste http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w200/ezmobee/New Boat/DSCF2384.jpg

I am kicking myself for not putting any behind my side panels as that would have been so simple to do.

Remember, it is very important to keep your noodles in order by color. They won't work otherwise

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w200/ezmobee/New Boat/DSCF2378.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w200/ezmobee/New Boat/DSCF2382.jpg

 

[ezmobee]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

I sent this link to Jas and Kev the other day. I was watching a show on Velocity where they were taking these extreme kite boarder dudes on adventures in Alaska. The boats they were using were so cool I had to look them up. http://www.stabicraft.com/

They looked to be only 17-19' boats powered my single 90HP Honda outboards and they had these things in RIDICULOUS conditions. Crazy rough seas and even going slowly through iceberg fields.

They actually call their design "pontoons" as they have chambers around the entire outer parts of the boat http://www.stabicraft.com/Design.aspx Super cool.

http://www.stabicraft.com/ProductList.aspx

 

[ezmobee]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

i mean, how you gonna sell it when the next MBS "fix" appears on CL if you have to tell buyers it ain't got no flotation and is thus illegal to use in most states?

This is even more absurd than the assertion that it's "illegal" to overpower. Is either recommended? Nope. Actually illegal, let alone enforced in 99% of the country? Highly unlikely.

 

[DirtyHarry83]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

I sent this link to Jas and Kev the other day. I was watching a show on Velocity where they were taking these extreme kite boarder dudes on adventures in Alaska. The boats they were using were so cool I had to look them up. http://www.stabicraft.com/

They looked to be only 17-19' boats powered my single 90HP Honda outboards and they had these things in RIDICULOUS conditions. Crazy rough seas and even going slowly through iceberg fields.

They actually call their design "pontoons" as they have chambers around the entire outer parts of the boat http://www.stabicraft.com/Design.aspx Super cool.

http://www.stabicraft.com/ProductList.aspx

Looks like a fancy tri hull. Starcraft used to make 16-18 footers out of fiberglass. Tri hulls make for a very stable boat.

I think their spin on an old idea is kind of cool. I just have this feeling thats a 60k boat.

 

[North Beach]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

This is even more absurd than the assertion that it's "illegal" to overpower. Is either recommended? Nope. Actually illegal, let alone enforced in 99% of the country? Highly unlikely.

Didn't I read somewhere that the flotation is only required on boats over 22' in length. And I honestly think Starcraft added the foam as a selling point..... Now don't get me wrong, I still wanted to add the flotation, I'm just sayin....

 

[North Beach]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

OK, looks like I had it exactly backwards;
Subpart F - Flotation Requirements for Inboards, Inboard/Outdrive, and Airboats
FEDERAL LAW

183.101 - Applicability

This subpart applies to monohull inboard boats, inboard/outdrive boats, and airboats less than 20 feet in length, except sailboats, canoes, kayaks, inflatable boats, submersibles, surface effect vessels, amphibious vessels, and raceboats.



Discussion:
Monohull inboard, inboard/outboard boats and airboats less than 20 feet in length must comply with a flotation system called Basic Flotation. Basic Flotation contains the requirements and tests. Basic flotation is the simplest type of flotation mode covered in this regulation. It simply requires that the boat be manufactured with sufficient flotation material to keep it afloat in the event of a swamping. It does not, however, require that the boat remain in an upright or indeed any specific position. It may float, and usually does, in a "spar" position, the bow sticking up and the stern sunk. The requirements include some materials tests. Basic Flotation covers this type of flotation.


Subpart G - Flotation Requirements for Outboard Boats Rated for Engines of More Than 2 Horsepower
FEDERAL LAW

183.201 - Applicability

(a) This subpart applies to monohull outboard boats that are:

(1) Less than 20 feet in length; and
(2) Rated for outboard engines of more than 2 horsepower.

(b) This subpart does not apply to sailboats, canoes, kayaks, inflatable boats, submersibles, surface effect vessels, amphibious vessels, and raceboats.



Discussion:
Monohull boats under 20 feet in length and rated for more than two horsepower must comply with the more sophisticated flotation system called Level Flotation. The Level Flotation system requires that the swamped boat, loaded with certain weights representing weight capacity, part of persons capacity and some equipment, must float in an approximately level position and not heel past a certain angle, even when part of the passengers’ weight is on one side of the passenger carrying area. The Level Flotation section covers the requirements and tests to perform.

For all of you techno-weenies-Here's some bathroom reading...
http://www.uscgboating.org/regulations/boatbuilder_s_handbook/flotation_part1_a.aspx

 

[ezmobee]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

And that rule only applies to OEMs.

 

[dozerII]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

Pink and blue foamular are real pricey up here in the great white north, 24"X 96"X 1" is $21.00 I can get this product, PlastiSpan HD
PlastiSpan HD EPS Rigid Insulation 96Inch X 24Inch X 2Inch It is $15.00, description says the same as Owen-Corning only the plastispan is cheaper. Opinions
Glen

 

[North Beach]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

Pink and blue foamular are real pricey up here in the great white north, 24"X 96"X 1" is $21.00 I can get this product, PlastiSpan HD
PlastiSpan HD EPS Rigid Insulation 96Inch X 24Inch X 2Inch It is $15.00, description says the same as Owen-Corning only the plastispan is cheaper. Opinions
Glen

Glen the EPS or Expanded Polystyrene is the stuff that came in the 60's era boats originally and is the stuff you want to stay away from. The Extruded Polystyrene is the way to go-IMHO

And E-I remember reading that somewhere a while back also....

 

[ezmobee]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

Dozer, if it's Extruded, you're good. Lowes has it's own brand that's green. Just used it for my basement walls. Same as the blue Dow and pink Corning.

 

[North Beach]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

Nothing like throwing out lots of MIS information...... Sorry E! And Glen-I just checked-the Plastispan is def an Expanded (white bead board) so you want to stay away from it.

 

[jasoutside]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

Hey Glen, I found a great source for the blue foam! Check it out...

http://i543.photobucket.com/albums/gg451/jasoutside/Sea Nymph SS 165/IMAG0017.jpg

Just let me know and I can grab some for ya! It's right near my place, it's a gold mine of foam, just sitting out like that too! I had to snap a photo for ya. Prolly too expensive to ship but I know you are good with driving ridiculous distances for boating gear so I can hang onto it till ya get here

 

[North Beach]

Re: Starmada Testing Laboratories

Hey Glen, I found a great source for the blue foam! Check it out...

http://i543.photobucket.com/albums/gg451/jasoutside/Sea Nymph SS 165/IMAG0017.jpg

Just let me know and I can grab some for ya! It's right near my place, it's a gold mine of foam, just sitting out like that too! I had to snap a photo for ya. Prolly too expensive to ship but I know you are good with driving ridiculous distances for boating gear so I can hang onto it till ya get here

hahaha