Winterizing engine without removing engine drain plugs - just an idea...

[Secondbestday]

I was thinking, instead of the conventional manifold plug removal and draining of the engine, I would:
1. Place a large catch pan under the rear transom and outdrive (24 x 36")
2. Place muffs on the intakes and attach the hose to a portable sump pump
3. Put 2 gals of antifreeze into a bucket and drop in the sump pump
4. Start the sump pump and then the motor and let the antifreeze pass through blending with the fresh water already in the engine with the runout draining into the catch pan
5. Stop the engine and transfer the recovered water/antifreeze from the catch pan into the "antifreeze bucket"
6. Do step 4 again. Test the antifreeze with a cheap tested until good to -30 (or whatever). Add water or antifreeze using this system until a proper freexe level is reached.

While this sounds like a PITA (pain), I think it would not be too hard to do, be entirely outside the boat, and very effective.

Any experience or thoughts on this?

Thanks,
Chris

 

[JimS123]

Re: Winterizing engine without removing engine drain plugs - just an idea...

Cumbersome process to be sure. They sell a cheap kit to do the same thing, and don't need a pan or sump pump.

5-gal tank with hose and fittings to connect to the muffs. Fill the tank with anti-freeze, then run the engine to temp on a hose. Disconnect the water hose and switch to the tank. Start back up and run till the tank runs dry.

Same idea, just simpler. I then drain a cup from the block and check it.....its always 100% antifreeze (i.e., it tests at -50F).

If you simply drain, that's ng either. Could have pockets of water left. IMHO, you need to put antifreeze in one way or the other if you're in a cold climate.

Now if enough people chime in on this thread there will be a dozen that tell you that its wrong. The key is to have the engine up to temp when you start, to be sure the thermostat is open.

I've been doing it for 8 years now and haven't cracked a block yet. My local marina does it that way too.

 

[achris]

Re: Winterizing engine without removing engine drain plugs - just an idea...

..If you simply drain, that's ng either. Could have pockets of water left. IMHO, you need to put antifreeze in one way or the other if you're in a cold climate.....

The drains are at the bottom of the manifold(s) and the bottom of the water passages in the block. Open the drains and make sure they are clear (use a nail or such), remove the bottom of the main water pump hose and all good.

With anti-freeze, unless you drain the block and manifold(s) completely first, you have a risk of a pocket of water that has not mixed thoroughly. Drain the block and manifold(s) and all you have is air in there, and we all know that 'air don't freeze'..... (maybe that's why all the manufacturer's handbooks say drain, and don't add anti-freeze)

Chris.........

 

[tpenfield]

Re: Winterizing engine without removing engine drain plugs - just an idea...

I was thinking, instead of the conventional manifold plug removal and draining of the engine, I would:
1. Place a large catch pan under the rear transom and outdrive (24 x 36")
2. Place muffs on the intakes and attach the hose to a portable sump pump
3. Put 2 gals of antifreeze into a bucket and drop in the sump pump
4. Start the sump pump and then the motor and let the antifreeze pass through blending with the fresh water already in the engine with the runout draining into the catch pan
5. Stop the engine and transfer the recovered water/antifreeze from the catch pan into the "antifreeze bucket"
6. Do step 4 again. Test the antifreeze with a cheap tested until good to -30 (or whatever). Add water or antifreeze using this system until a proper freexe level is reached.

While this sounds like a PITA (pain), I think it would not be too hard to do, be entirely outside the boat, and very effective.

Any experience or thoughts on this?

Thanks,
Chris

My experience and thoughts on this are . . .

Too much of a 'Laurel and Hardy' routine, recirculating the antifreeze.

You can do the antifreeze thing, you just need to run an abundant amount of anti-freeze through the engine so that the concentration left in the engine block, manifolds, etc is very high and most all of the plain water has been purged. I usually use 5-6 gallons.

Here is my video for your enjoyment: [video]http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/WinterizingtheEngine.mov[/video]

 

[billbayliner]

Re: Winterizing engine without removing engine drain plugs - just an idea...

With anti-freeze, unless you drain the block and manifold(s) completely first, you have a risk of a pocket of water that has not mixed thoroughly. Drain the block and manifold(s) and all you have is air in there, and we all know that 'air don't freeze'..... (maybe that's why all the manufacturer's handbooks say drain, and don't add anti-freeze)

Chris is right. Even if you drain first, you need to know that most of the incoming sea water [or antifreeze] is going to the exhaust. The motor takes in what the thermostat allows to leave as it slowly opens. By the time we see antifreeze coming out the exhaust, the supply is used up, and the pockets of water mentioned can dilute the antifreeze.

Sounds great at first of winter but won't sound so good come spring time.
Most OEM service manuals suggest draining the block and manifolds and leaving the drain plugs out.

 

[Secondbestday]

Re: Winterizing engine without removing engine drain plugs - just an idea...

Thanks Chris and Jim. You rock. As I said in the subject, "just an idea". Seems like not a totally flawed idea. It would be a better idea if the antifreeze (or coolant in general) could be circulated to eliminate the recovery mess/laurel and hardy/goat rodeo. And given I am new to this boat (and this forum), I am not completely sure how the cooling system works and therefore not absolutely sure where cooling water might pool and cause problems. So, the concept of a power flush of the whole system with antifreeze and then just let drain naturally has some appeal.

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: Winterizing engine without removing engine drain plugs - just an idea...

I was thinking, instead of the conventional manifold plug removal and draining of the engine, I would:
1. Place a large catch pan under the rear transom and outdrive (24 x 36")
2. Place muffs on the intakes and attach the hose to a portable sump pump
3. Put 2 gals of antifreeze into a bucket and drop in the sump pump
4. Start the sump pump and then the motor and let the antifreeze pass through blending with the fresh water already in the engine with the runout draining into the catch pan
5. Stop the engine and transfer the recovered water/antifreeze from the catch pan into the "antifreeze bucket"
6. Do step 4 again. Test the antifreeze with a cheap tested until good to -30 (or whatever). Add water or antifreeze using this system until a proper freexe level is reached.

While this sounds like a PITA (pain), I think it would not be too hard to do, be entirely outside the boat, and very effective.

Any experience or thoughts on this?

Thanks,
Chris

you forgot to add buying a new engine in spring because the thermostat did not open, and there was still 3 gallons of water in various areas.

it takes about 20 minutes to open the drains, spray down the bilge, and then cover for the winter.

no buying 5 gallons of anti-freeze, not buying hoses, not buying a sump pump.

 

[Secondbestday]

Re: Winterizing engine without removing engine drain plugs - just an idea...

Okay Bill. I just need to read and learn more about the proper winterizing process. I know where the drain fittings are and I know they are fully operable. I just need to get comfortable with the process. Of course, I am now thinking why not just remove the thermostat and run the coolant through.... (that may be the sumbest idea ever as I am hoping to lessen my winterizing work.

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: Winterizing engine without removing engine drain plugs - just an idea...

why not just drain it and leave the plugs out for the winter. air doesnt freeze. if you have a mercruiser, you wont even need tools.

 

[billbayliner]

Re: Winterizing engine without removing engine drain plugs - just an idea...

Okay Bill. I just need to read and learn more about the proper winterizing process. I know where the drain fittings are and I know they are fully operable. I just need to get comfortable with the process. Of course, I am now thinking why not just remove the thermostat and run the coolant through.... (that may be the sumbest idea ever as I am hoping to lessen my winterizing work.

Chris, just plain old air in the block and heads can't cause any freeze expansion damage.
The wrong or diluted mixture might cause damage.
If you were to drain the block and then fill through the Tstat opening, you do stand a better chance.
All that is gained is a bit of cast iron corrosion prevention contrasted to the risk of freeze damage.
The rest of the season you're running sea water through there anyway.
The risk just isn't worth it.
Follow your OEM manual and you won't have any problems.

why not just drain it and leave the plugs out for the winter. air doesnt freeze. if you have a mercruiser, you wont even need tools.

Yes!

 

[Secondbestday]

Re: Winterizing engine without removing engine drain plugs - just an idea...

Thanks all. I'll do it the proper and right way (next year). Thanks for considering the "idea" anyway.
ChrisL

 

[JimS123]

Re: Winterizing engine without removing engine drain plugs - just an idea...

Most OEM service manuals suggest draining the block and manifolds and leaving the drain plugs out.

Don't know about current Owner's Manuals, but mine (an oem Mercruiser 1984 manual) says to put the plugs back in, remove the t-stat and top cooling hose and fill the block and hose with antifreze.

I realize the newer models have blue plastic stopcocks that make draining very easy, but mine has brass plugs that need to be wrenched out, then gooped up with teflon sealer when they are put back in. The plugs are in the same locations as the new model motors.

 

[Secondbestday]

Re: Winterizing engine without removing engine drain plugs - just an idea...

Right Jim. My owner's manual says the same. I just had the mercruiser 3.0 unwinterized and rewinterized at a good boatyard and I do not think they touched the t-stat. I quess the fundemental question is whether pulling the drain plugs will allow all the sea water in the block to drain from block and manifold. If so, adding anti-freeze is for anticorrosion and extra caution. There are so many people who have success winterizing, I just want to go with a proven method on my 1997 Mercruiser 3.0.
ChrisL

 

[tpenfield]

Re: Winterizing engine without removing engine drain plugs - just an idea...

"Anti-freeze" versus "draining" is often the 'great debate' on this board and elsewhere. I can point out advantages and disadvantages of both methods, and I actually use a combination of the 2 methods.

I run antifreeze through the system, then I drain the exhaust manifolds and the engine block. What is left you might ask . . .

Well, there is the sea water strainer, the sea water pump, the oil cooler, the re-circulating pump, and various hoses, etc. along the cooling system path leading up to the engine. These I choose to protect with anti-freeze as they are more difficult and problematic to drain.

 

[ENSIGN]

Re: Winterizing engine without removing engine drain plugs - just an idea...

Theres been to many shortcuts over the years! Anyone to lazy to drain a block and manifolds needs a different hobby...

 

[billbayliner]

Re: Winterizing engine without removing engine drain plugs - just an idea...

Theres been to many shortcuts over the years! Anyone to lazy to drain a block and manifolds needs a different hobby...

LOL.... true.

Chris, you want a proven method. Ted, you say that this is often debated.
Try reverse engineering this and follow the thread of events around this.
Start by looking at engine blocks/heads that have become freeze damaged.
Trace the steps backwards, and see what caused the problem.
I doubt that you'll find cracked blocks and heads and manifolds that were properly drained and left drained.
Of the ones that I see and read about that suffered damage, they either tried and missed the antifreeze idea, or they did not drain all of the sea water out.

Air won't cause freeze expansion damage.
Freeze expanding water will.

 

[JimS123]

Re: Winterizing engine without removing engine drain plugs - just an idea...

Right Jim. My owner's manual says the same. I just had the mercruiser 3.0 unwinterized and rewinterized at a good boatyard and I do not think they touched the t-stat. I quess the fundemental question is whether pulling the drain plugs will allow all the sea water in the block to drain from block and manifold. If so, adding anti-freeze is for anticorrosion and extra caution. There are so many people who have success winterizing, I just want to go with a proven method on my 1997 Mercruiser 3.0.
ChrisL

You'll get a lot of opinions. You can chose which to follow. One thing for sure, though....you can't go wrong if you follow the Manual.

 

[Lou C]

Re: Winterizing engine without removing engine drain plugs - just an idea...

This has been debated for years and years...both methods have their fans, but sucking AF up the drive has risks, if you don't drain the block first, and the thermo does not open all the way (and it may not idling on the water hose on a cool fall day, sucking in water at 45-50*F) you will have most of the AF filling the manifolds and the rest going out the exhaust. If you do want to use this method, taking a sample from a block drain is a MUST.
I do it the old fashioned way, remove the drains and hose ends, make sure you probe all drains since they can get clogged with rust. Then I pour af in the hoses feeding the manifolds til a little af comes out the drain. I then put some grease or OMC gasket sealer on the threads of the plug, replace it and fill each manifold till it runs out the exhaust port of the transom mount. I do the block the same way, I reconnect the bottom end of the big hose on the water pump that I disconnected to drain. Then I disconnect it from the thermo housing. I then pour in af till it comes out the block drains (you can actually see it push out the last of the water). Replace plug and fill engine till af appears at the thermo neck. Re connect that big hose at the thermo housing. Last pour af into the raw water intake hose till it runs out drive intakes.
You don't have to use af, but it does cut down on corrosion, because it keeps air out. This method is straight from my OMC factory owners manual. Merc recommends a similar procedure. Neither, ever recommended sucking af up the drive.

if you want easy winterization, buy an outboard, this is one of the down sides of I/Os. Full closed cooling, while more complex, does make it easier, and you can use the suck AF up the drive with full closed cooling. No worries about the 'stat not opening, no draining except the raw water side.

 

[JimS123]

Re: Winterizing engine without removing engine drain plugs - just an idea...

Our sponsor sells the part that many here say will ruin your engine.

Maybe we better tread lightly.

http://www.iboats.com/Do-It-Yoursel...19421894--**********.603389175--view_id.39972

This is the kit that I have used, so I'm in full support of I-boats. Just like anything else, Goober and Bubba can screw anything up if they don't read the directions.

When I winterize, I can see that the T-stat is open, and I also drain a cup from the block and test it to be sure its straight stuff.

 

[Don S]

Re: Winterizing engine without removing engine drain plugs - just an idea...

Our sponsor sells the part that many here say will ruin your engine.

Maybe we better tread lightly.

http://www.iboats.com/Do-It-Yoursel...19421894--**********.603389175--view_id.39972

iboats sells parts, that setup works fine for boats with closed cooling systems, but not so well with raw water cooled boats.
Just because a company sells something doesn't mean it works for everyone. It's up to the buyer to know what he can or can't use.