E-10 for science minded people

[Bob_VT]

In this post Mark42 is looking at fuel/water seperators for his gasoline engine http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=295481

Those filters look good.

For all the people who grew up in the north and were used to using dry gas in their cars ....... it was to carry the water out of the fuel system by allowing it to burn off in the combustion chamber. Since the alcohol in the dry gas would cling to the water it would prevent freezing too.

Here is the big question.

Since most of us use E10 (10%alcohol blended into 90% gasoline) in our tanks will this negate the use of the fuel water seperator on a gas engine? I am aware that dry gas sales have almost vanished here up north.

Thoughts?

 

[Shizzy]

Re: E-10 for science minded people

thats always been my thought. I really dont see the difference between adding Isopropyl alcohol or adding ethanol. I also believe its less of an issue with FI engines. Much higher fuel pressure, better fuel / air control gives you a better chance of starting in the winter.

 

[SS MAYFLOAT]

Re: E-10 for science minded people

Sounds like it is what it is. Dry gas = alcohol,,,,,,,E-10 = alcohol.

I can remember when you heard of people calling off work due to fuel line freeze up when the extreme temps would hit. That is when you would see the dry gas fly off the shelves. Its the natural habit for some to wait til the last minuet while some add it religiously at each fill up. During the extreme cold this year, I have noticed that there hasn't been any fuel line freeze up gossip. I guess that is a plus to having the alcohol additive.

 

[Shizzy]

Re: E-10 for science minded people

most people I knew who had a "fuel line freeze up" had some poorly maintained POS. 99% of the time Im sure it was just ol' Bessie refusing to start in such a cold temp. Poor state of tune and a weak battery at below zero temps is NOT a good plan of attack.

 

[JB]

Re: E-10 for science minded people

Before I got a good water seperating fuel filter I regularly used HEET, probably about the same stuff as Dry Gas.

What HEET does is make the water miscible with gas to make a uniform mix of the gas and water so the water is "burned" with the gas. It is seperated water that causes trouble in the carbs/injectors.

Ethanol does something similar. . .mixes with the water. . .but that makes the ethanol less miscible with the gas and it may seperate water/alcohol from the gas. Bleah.

I don't know what the water seperator does about the water/alcohol. That is a good question. Does the seperator still seperate out the water and let gas/alcohol mix through? I had no water problems using a seperating filter with E-10, but no HEET.

Next question is how does HEET affect gas/alcohol mixes, with and without water?

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: E-10 for science minded people

HEET is considered the high end dry gas and then the lower end brands were seperated into two catagories ..... one for fuel injected engines and one for the "rare" carborated engine

 

[Mark42]

Re: E-10 for science minded people

I can tell you from experience that the little bit of alcohol in gas is not enough to absorb any significant amount of water. Last summer I turned the hose on the push mower to wash off the grass and dirt. Next time I used it the motor stalled out right away. Seems that the vent on the gas cap let the water pour right into the tank. It ended up with about 1-2 oz of water in a half gallon tank. The water wasn't absorbed, it just rolled around the bottom of the tank in little globs. Enough to stall the motor.

 

[Mark42]

Re: E-10 for science minded people

.....I don't know what the water seperator does about the water/alcohol. That is a good question. Does the seperator still seperate out the water and let gas/alcohol mix through? I had no water problems using a seperating filter with E-10, but no HEET.

Next question is how does HEET affect gas/alcohol mixes, with and without water?

What I got from reading product documents is that 10 micron filters are small enough to block water molicule, but large enough to let gas/alcohol/oil pass. So in theory, even absorbed water should fall out in a 10 micron filter.

Maybe a chemist can jump in here.

 

[dingbat]

Re: E-10 for science minded people

What I got from reading product documents is that 10 micron filters are small enough to block water molicule, but large enough to let gas/alcohol/oil pass. So in theory, even absorbed water should fall out in a 10 micron filter.

Maybe a chemist can jump in here.

Can't speak for other brands, but a Racor will remove the water that has been "absorbed" into the gas.

E-10 can hold up to 0.5% water by volume in suspension. I keep anywhere from 70-140 gallons of fuel onboard at any given time. In late July and August I often have problems with my fuel "hazing" if I've not turned the fuel in the tanks over enough.

My Racors have no problems removing this water as is evident by the water that I remove from the filters after each outing in the summer. If the loading of the Racors gets excessive a treatment of Startron has proven to be effective in my situation.

Here is a good article on E-10 fuels

http://www.a1distributors.net/files/Ethanol_dos_and_donts.pdf

 

[ebry710]

Re: E-10 for science minded people

I like science and since this a science minded forum let me remind you guys what alcohol is. It is a compound that has -OH (oxygen hydrogen) attached to it. In a fluid like fuel, the -OH breaks with it compound and adds to +H (hydrogen) to form H2O (water). When you add stabilizers or binders you making an effort to stop, slow down or reverse the alcohol to water shift.

 

[gstanton]

Re: E-10 for science minded people

But... I think another (boat) problem with ethanol is the effect on hoses and rubber parts in the fuel system. Wouldn't adding more alcohol make it worse?

Just wondering!

 

[mscher]

Re: E-10 for science minded people

Can't speak for other brands, but a Racor will remove the water that has been "absorbed" into the gas.

E-10 can hold up to 0.5% water by volume in suspension. I keep anywhere from 70-140 gallons of fuel onboard at any given time. In late July and August I often have problems with my fuel "hazing" if I've not turned the fuel in the tanks over enough.

My Racors have no problems removing this water as is evident by the water that I remove from the filters after each outing in the summer. If the loading of the Racors gets excessive a treatment of Startron has proven to be effective in my situation.

Here is a good article on E-10 fuels

http://www.a1distributors.net/files/Ethanol_dos_and_donts.pdf

Water cannot be filtered out of ethanol.

The "water" collected in your Racor seperator, is probably ethanol bonded with water, that has went through Phase Seperation, in which the ethanol no longer mixes with the gasoline.

About the only way water can be removed from ethanol, is through fractional distillation.

 

[mthieme]

Re: E-10 for science minded people

I'm not giving up my filters.

 

[mscher]

Re: E-10 for science minded people

In this post Mark42 is looking at fuel/water seperators for his gasoline engine http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=295481

Those filters look good.

For all the people who grew up in the north and were used to using dry gas in their cars ....... it was to carry the water out of the fuel system by allowing it to burn off in the combustion chamber. Since the alcohol in the dry gas would cling to the water it would prevent freezing too.

Here is the big question.

Since most of us use E10 (10%alcohol blended into 90% gasoline) in our tanks will this negate the use of the fuel water seperator on a gas engine? I am aware that dry gas sales have almost vanished here up north.

Thoughts?

Yes and no.

Dry gas/Heet is no longer necessary, since ethanol basically does the same job.

A water seperator is still very useful.

Ethanol will absorb water and then burn through combustion - to a point. If is absorbs too much water, then the water/ethanol mix will separate from the gasoline and settle on the tank bottom - same as water used to do by itelf, in straight gasoline.

If the ethanol/water mix is enough and gets pumped into the engine, the engine may run bad or not at all.

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: E-10 for science minded people

But... I think another (boat) problem with ethanol is the effect on hoses and rubber parts in the fuel system. Wouldn't adding more alcohol make it worse?

Just wondering!

There are alcohol resistant fuel lines available.

 

[dingbat]

Re: E-10 for science minded people

Water cannot be filtered out of ethanol.

The "water" collected in your Racor seperator, is probably ethanol bonded with water, that has went through Phase Seperation, in which the ethanol no longer mixes with the gasoline.

About the only way water can be removed from ethanol, is through fractional distillation.

If I read you right, the haze in the fuel is actually saturated ethanol?

 

[a70eliminator]

Re: E-10 for science minded people

I always drive winter beaters here in the northest rust belt, Anyhow this years beater has a rusted out leaking fuel tank, I'm not about to put any money repairs into a 200.00 car. I just keep no more than 4 gals. in tank and it doesn't leak fuel, I was worried it would take on water and freeze the fuel line especially on the days I'm running on fumes twice a week, but surprisingly no fuel line freeze up, come to think of it never ever in my life have I experienced fuel line freeze, not on my cars or snowblower.

 

[Tacklewasher]

Re: E-10 for science minded people

most people I knew who had a "fuel line freeze up" had some poorly maintained POS. 99% of the time Im sure it was just ol' Bessie refusing to start in such a cold temp. Poor state of tune and a weak battery at below zero temps is NOT a good plan of attack.

My only time having fuel line freeze up was bad gas.

Had gone to the in-laws. About a 7 hour drive so I fill up before I leave, fill up about 2/3's of the way there (driving a little POS Escort). Stay for a week doing a little running around. All without issue. Fill up to head home and don't get 20 minutes before the car dies. Pour the antifreeze in and get going again. Had to stop in the next town for more anti-freeze as it just wasn't running right. Once the tank was gone, no more issue.

This was in Williams Lake for Christmas so it was around -20C.

 

[v1_0]

Re: E-10 for science minded people

Since most of us use E10 (10%alcohol blended into 90% gasoline) in our tanks will this negate the use of the fuel water seperator on a gas engine? I am aware that dry gas sales have almost vanished here up north.

Thoughts?

Well, if you are talking about fresh gas then ok. However, over time the alcohol would attract water out of the air too...

 

[Laddies]

Re: E-10 for science minded people

After two days of discussions no one has asked the $64 question, because most outboard engines are not true oil injection engines but premixers will petroleum base oil mix with alcohol? NO. So what lubricates the $8000.00 toy when the alcohol goes through the engine.