Crazy gas saving scheme, will it work?

[CJY]

Re: Crazy gas saving scheme, will it work?

Ok I know i'm really new here, and on top of it aint the brightest bulb in the pack, but if i remember (and i probably don't) correctly from science class h2 + o= water, now i think i understand that what they are doing is actually harnessing the energy created from this, but what happens to the water? does it simply evaporate from the heat? or is it run through the motor and then disposed of threw exhaust? Either way isnt that going to create a whole new problem? such as rust?

Out the tail pipe. A properly running motor already expells some water out of the tail pipe.

 

[Coors]

Re: Crazy gas saving scheme, will it work?

I saw this really neat device that doubles or triples fuel economy. One end of the device is attached to your car, the other end is attached to any unsuspecting parked vehicle. Then it magically doubles or triples the amount of gas in your tank.

I think it works best when done late at night and you have to drive away really fast.

Yep, and the are sold at even a grocery store.

 

[CJY]

Re: Crazy gas saving scheme, will it work?

CYJ, I understand exactly what Bucky is talking about. What's going on in the video you linked to is an inefficient process which uses electricity to create hydrogen, and then recombines the hydrogen with oxygen to create energy. How is that creating energy? It's simply transferring it. You need energy to separate the oxygen from the hydrogen. You seem to have the idea that it takes less energy to separate the two gases than is produced when they recombine. This is incorrect. Basically, the principle you're talking about is about the same as powering a wind-up car by running a drive off of the wheel that re-winds the key.

You can't make a car that is powered by water. You can separate the water into its component gases, but to do so you need an external source of energy. What's your external source of energy?

Spark. H2O can be simply separated with electricity, a form of energy. They are recombined with heat, another form of energy. The heat is the needed component in a combustion engine. The key is the type of energy put in and the type of energy it is converted to.

 

[nismo]

Re: Crazy gas saving scheme, will it work?

yes i understand a small amount of water is expelled out the exhaust, but we are talking about a device that in the end produces water, that will be run through the exhaust manifold, through the entire exhaust system, and in order for this device to make any amount of difference we are talking about producing alot of water. water+motor=not good.

 

[CJY]

Re: Crazy gas saving scheme, will it work?

yes i understand a small amount of water is expelled out the exhaust, but we are talking about a device that in the end produces water, that will be run through the exhaust manifold, through the entire exhaust system, and in order for this device to make any amount of difference we are talking about producing alot of water. water+motor=not good.

I don't know the amounts of a normal running motor. But the person in the video says 4 ounces per 100 miles on hydrogen. On the highway, we will call that about 1-1/2 hours. I bet the normal amount of water from a gasoline car is greater than that. Watch the exhaust of a car, most drip regularly at idle. Unless the car is burning oil, the water vapor is the part of the exhaust you see in the winter....at least in the northern states. The other gases produced are invisible. Again, unless it is burning oil.

 

[nismo]

Re: Crazy gas saving scheme, will it work?

4ounces? hmm interesting, i'm sure a car can run off of hydrogen with no problems, but i think it would still need to be a specially designed motor to handle the process of it over the long term. I know i wish someone would hurry up and come up with something clean burning, economical and safe as a replacement for gas or petroleum based fuels. Four dollars a gallon is killing me even with my little four banger japanese cars. Our honda is still pretty good on gas, but my Mitsubishi eclipse might get close to 17-20 miles a gallon now with the way the motor was built.

 

[cheburashka]

Re: Crazy gas saving scheme, will it work?

Spark. H2O can be simply separated with electricity, a form of energy. They are recombined with heat, another form of energy. The heat is the needed component in a combustion engine. The key is the type of energy put in and the type of energy it is converted to.

So essentially, what you have is a battery. An efficient means of storing electrical energy and later releasing it. That's a fuel cell. The problem is that you need an external source of electricity. The combination of the oxygen and hydrogen can't possibly produce enough energy to both propel the car, and separate more water into oxygen and hydrogen. In fact, it can't even produce enough energy to separate out the same amount of hydrogen you started with.

This is a cool way to store energy, and in fact, Honda has a hydrogen fuel cell car coming out on the market soon. However, I'm still not sure you "get it" yet. Are you under the impression that a car could produce enough energy to propel itself simply using water, electrolysis and spark with no external energy source?

 

[CJY]

Re: Crazy gas saving scheme, will it work?

4ounces? hmm interesting, i'm sure a car can run off of hydrogen with no problems, but i think it would still need to be a specially designed motor to handle the process of it over the long term. I know i wish someone would hurry up and come up with something clean burning, economical and safe as a replacement for gas or petroleum based fuels. Four dollars a gallon is killing me even with my little four banger japanese cars. Our honda is still pretty good on gas, but my Mitsubishi eclipse might get close to 17-20 miles a gallon now with the way the motor was built.

I agree nismo. I'm sure there are lubrication and maybe even rust issues that would have to be addressed. Don't some cars come with aluminum exhaust manifolds?

 

[CJY]

Re: Crazy gas saving scheme, will it work?

So essentially, what you have is a battery. An efficient means of storing electrical energy and later releasing it. That's a fuel cell. The problem is that you need an external source of electricity. The combination of the oxygen and hydrogen can't possibly produce enough energy to both propel the car, and separate more water into oxygen and hydrogen. In fact, it can't even produce enough energy to separate out the same amount of hydrogen you started with.

This is a cool way to store energy, and in fact, Honda has a hydrogen fuel cell car coming out on the market soon. However, I'm still not sure you "get it" yet. Are you under the impression that a car could produce enough energy to propel itself simply using water, electrolysis and spark with no external energy source?

It's not producing its own energy just as the current gasoline vehicle does not create its own energy. Yes, I do believe a car can separate water into H and O, use the H to operate much like gasoline.


The needed "external" energy source would be the adding of water. I do get what you are saying, but I'm not sure if you get what I am saying.


Your current vehicle sustains itself with electricity and gasoline, why can't it sustain itself with electricity and H2O in the same way. To get the energy from gasoline, atomic bonds must be broken much like the bonds in water must be broken. Sooner or later, you add more gasoline. With the H2O vehicle, sooner or later, you add more water. Both cars have an external energy source, one has gasoline while the other is water.

I think the hang up for many is, water as a source of fuel, and just how much hydrogen gas is available in small amounts of water.

 

[cheburashka]

Re: Crazy gas saving scheme, will it work?

It's not producing its own energy just as the current gasoline vehicle does not create it's own energy.


I guess the "external" energy source would be the adding of water. I do get what you are saying, but I'm not sure if you get what I am saying.


Your current vehicle sustains itself with electricity and gasoline, why can't it sustain itself with electricity and H2O in the same way. To get the energy from gasoline, atomic bonds must be broken much like the bonds in water must be broken. Sooner or later, you add more gasoline. With the H2O vehicle, sooner or later, you add more water. Both cars have an external energy source, one has gasoline while the other is water.

I think the hang up for many is, water as a source of fuel, and just how much hydrogen gas is available in small amounts of water.

I'm not the best person to explain this, since my physics and chemistry classes were a few decades ago. I do recall something about potential energy and stored energy. I don't think there's any stored energy in water. Water would need something to react with if it were to produce any energy at all. At present, I don't know of anything that reacts with water in a way that produces the kind of energy you get from an oxidation reaction like oxygen and hydrogen, or hydrocarbons and oxygen. Get back to the idea of a battery. There's energy in that battery that can be used. However, once you drain the battery, you can't just reverse the terminals and get more energy out of it. When it's drained, it takes energy to recharge it.

Ideally, you could get energy out of any atom. But then you're talking fusion energy, which is a long way down the pike. I'd like to believe in this, but to me it just seems like trying to roll a car up the hill it just rolled down by picking the car up and pointing it in the other direction. Oxidation is a violent one-way reaction. It takes energy to build the potential for that reaction, and the necessary energy to build the potential will always be more than the energy released in the reaction due the inefficiency of the means used to build that potential.

 

[SgtMaj]

Re: Crazy gas saving scheme, will it work?

I saw this really neat device that doubles or triples fuel economy. One end of the device is attached to your car, the other end is attached to any unsuspecting parked vehicle. Then it magically doubles or triples the amount of gas in your tank.

I think it works best when done late at night and you have to drive away really fast.

I have to correct you here... you don't have to drive away really fast... you just have to drive away... remember, as you're driving away at even just 10mph... they're out of gas.

 

[SgtMaj]

Re: Crazy gas saving scheme, will it work?

I think we should all just accept that the best vehicles will be those with H2>He engines... now to just solve the cold fusion problem...

 

[SgtMaj]

Re: Crazy gas saving scheme, will it work?

By the way... these might all be some crazy gas schemes... but they are all better than burning down a starbucks to protest high gas prices...

... or buying and storing a few hundred gallons of it at the cheaper prices, but storing it in your apartment... the same one you smoke in...

 

[CJY]

Re: Crazy gas saving scheme, will it work?

I do recall something about potential energy and stored energy. I don't think there's any stored energy in water. Water would need something to react with if it were to produce any energy at all. At present, I don't know of anything that reacts with water in a way that produces the kind of energy you get from an oxidation reaction like oxygen and hydrogen, or hydrocarbons and oxygen. QUOTE]


There is stored energy in water. Anything that is atomically bonded has stored chemical energy. H is a highly combustible element. Thus the need for separation. In order for the H to ignite or anything else to ignite, O is needed. You do get the reaction as you describe in your last sentence. Both the H2 and O is sent as separates to the combustion chamber where they once again become atomically bonded.

It is not the water that reacts with anything, it is the H2 and O that react with each another. Again, the key is electrical in and heat out.

Do you believe a fuel cell will ever work, the type where you fill up with H which is the combustible energy that replaces gasoline? The only diff with the video is that he uses the H that is compressed in water. He separates it, it expands back to a gas and is sent to the combustion chamber where it is ignited.

I guess cheb, we can agree to disagree on this one. I believe the video shows that it works and we will soon see this on the roads regularly. It does bother me that a car company bought or is trying to buy the patent for this. I don't know what their motive is. It does not bother me as much as an oil company buying it though. I believe if an oil company purchases this patent, it will be shelved and we will be back to square one.

As far as oil prices, they are what they are and there is very little we can do about those prices. I have accepted them and pay whatever the price is. I don't like it, but there is no choice right now for those that have become dependent on our vehicles. Human inginuity will prevail, it absolutely has to. American inginuity in part, is driven by our dislike for fences controlled by others. Oil has put up a huge fence and America will certainly get over that obstacle. I think right now, oil companies are getting as much as they can as quickly as they can. Yes, the bubble will pop as many have expressed and oil knows it. It will pop because a viable alternative will soon hit the market. See ya at the water pump.

 

[cheburashka]

Re: Crazy gas saving scheme, will it work?

There is stored energy in water. Anything that is atomically bonded has stored chemical energy. H is a highly combustible element.

I don't see why you aren't getting this! Yes, H is a highly combustible element--meaning it has a strong potential for oxidation! Water is H which has already been oxidized! It has formed molecular bonds, and the formation of these molecular bonds are the source of the energy. To de-oxidise the hydrogen, you need to apply energy to it. Once it becomes water, it has been robbed of its potential to create energy.

Bananas are a great source of calories. One day after I eat a banana, I excrete that banana in a different form. The form that I excrete is NOT a great source of calories. Turning that excretion back into a banana is going to take a banana tree, a lot of water and solar energy, and time. It's a similar principle to electrolysis. Stored energy (whether it be a banana or hydrogen) is consumed and creates energy (whether it be calories or combustion heat). Once the stored energy is used up, you need an external process to restore the stored energy.

By your logic, I could collect the gases from my tailpipe, separate out the oxygen, and have gasoline again. I'm sure that could be done, but it would take the application of energy, and would be a highly inefficient process.

You can extract energy from water in only one way I know of, and that's hydroelectric power.

In short, you are correct that you can send H and O to the combustion chamber. The problem is, you need energy to separate the H and O in the water, and you haven't ever said where that energy comes from.

 

[External Combustion]

Re: Crazy gas saving scheme, will it work?

Sarge:

I just read this thread for the first time. I would have been in the camp saying it would not work, but I went back to school for an engineering degree with an emphasis in mechanical powerand have experimented with several of the aspects mentioned.

I really admire you for this. What you did was real education. Most think that going to schools of higher learning produces education, but they are sadly mistaken. I have known several PhDs in Electrical Engineering that could not troubleshoot the alternators on their own car.

You researched, tried a hypothesis with careful experimentation, refined your ideas, listened to others hypotheses, changed you experiments to reflect what you learned, kept experimenting until you had the answers that satified your original question and shared your knowledge with others.

God knows I wish I had had some employees like you in my working career.

Keep up your intrest in the world around you. Remember that most inventions of real worth come from people that originally did not have a background in the field that they advanced.

One of my favorite stories that can be verified was that Ferdinan Porsche was walking through a factory just after WWII with several white coated, suit wearing engineers. One of the mechanics was working on a car in the factory shop adjusting the suspension. He stopped Dr. Porche to relate a problem that the car was having.

Porsche got down on the creeper, slid under the car examined it for a few moments. All of the time the engineers just stood there, not wanting to get dirty. Saying out loud "of course!" he came back up to the group and started to walk off. One of the young engineers asked him what the problem was. He replied while pointing to the car, "See for yourself". No one moved.

Porsche was self educated. The Doctorate was an honorary degree. He never was afraid of "failure", hard work or dirt. He not only designed good engines and cars, but his tanks were the best in the world at the time and his process work helped keep Germany in the war far after most nations would have ground to a stop.

Keep after it!

 

[SgtMaj]

Re: Crazy gas saving scheme, will it work?

I do recall something about potential energy and stored energy. I don't think there's any stored energy in water. Water would need something to react with if it were to produce any energy at all. At present, I don't know of anything that reacts with water in a way that produces the kind of energy you get from an oxidation reaction like oxygen and hydrogen, or hydrocarbons and oxygen.

How about Potassium?

 

[studlymandingo]

Re: Crazy gas saving scheme, will it work?

Unfortuneately I live so far from work, that I don't really have that option. I end up commuting about 10 hours a week on the interstate, which eats up about $60 of gas a week at $3/gal.

Where can I find this $3 a gallon gas you speak of???

 

[cheburashka]

Re: Crazy gas saving scheme, will it work?

How about Potassium?

Hmm. Hadn't thought of that. Sodium would be cool too.

Of course, a car powered by a sodium/water or potassium/water combination wouldn't really be "water powered."

 

[Coors]

Re: Crazy gas saving scheme, will it work?

ethanol=food shortage
Hydrogen car=water shortage