Oil in water...getting it out

[StevNimrod]

I'm finding out the hard way the truth in the saying "just because you found it that way doesn't mean it's supposed to be that way".

I bought my current rig last year and didn't have any real problems. The last time I used the boat I had three other guys out fishing with me (two sitting in the back seats) and at one point we ended up anchored in 4 foot waves. At one point I went to the back of the boat to measure a fish and noticed my exhaust tips going in and out of the water (they sit about six inches above the waterline when the boat is docked). Boat ran fine on the way back in and I put it away without thinking anything about it.

Went to start it yesterday and after cranking and it not starting I went to check the oil, which looked milky. I pulled the plugs and cranked the motor several times (couldn't see what, if anything came out), cleaned the plugs and put them back in, got the oil out and filter too. Put two quarts of oil in and three quarts of Rislone and new filter. Cranked the motor over a bunch times with the switch off (to prevent starting). Pulled that oil and filter and put new in. Cranked a bit again and checked. Oil looked normal. Ran it at idle for a bit, shut it down and checked again and still looked fine.

Took the boat out today for a quick run and checked oil back at dock. Milky again. The level hasn't risen and I'm almost 100% certain I know how the water got in originally. I've since learned that exhaust flappers shouldn't hang out at a 45* angle with the boat off.

At any rate, any suggestions on how to better get the water out of the engine, or should I count on doing a bunch more oil changes (one after each run depending on how the oil looks)? Any complications by this happening during break-in?

 

[jtybt]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Your problem isn't getting the oil out but finding and stopping the cause.

Very little likelyhood of water getting into the oil by way of the exhaust or combustion chambers.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Howdy,

I'm almost 100% certain I know how the water got in originally.

I'm not sure you do.....water getting into the engine thru the exhaust is usually not enough to make the oil "milky" especially if you were able to start it easily without evidence of hydro-lock.

There isn't an easy path to the pan thru the exhaust ports unless you have a piston with a hole in it.

Put two quarts of oil in and three quarts of Rislone and new filter.

Ok, I'll bite, what's the "Rislone" supposed to do? I don't know any "Snake oil" that will remove water from oil any faster than just changing it. If by changing it you don't get what's in the bottom of the pan it'll take more than a few changes.

Some people suggest using some diesel (or other light petroleum solvent) to mix with the oil. That makes the oil less viscous and allows it to mix with the water more readily (makes a water-oil suspension actually) which you can then drain.....and then it may take a few "changes. I would use really light oil like 5W20 instead of diesel......diesel is a crummy lubricant.....

It really sounds like you have a leak from the cooling system somewhere that is making it's way into the oil....maybe the intake manifold and/or gasket, etc, leaking into the "valley"


Your best bet will be to pressurize the cooling system and rule out leaks. You should be able to pump it up to about 15psi and have it hold.


Regards,



Rick

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Very little likelyhood of water getting into the oil by way of the exhaust or combustion chambers.

To my knowledge the other two causes would be a cracked block or a blown head gasket. Which would have had to happen in the first five hours of running the engine since we ran it for a half hour on muffs while getting the idle set and timing adjusted, etc. Talking to a friend of mine who had a similar setup on his (thru hulls not high above the waterline and boat going up and down in big waves) and had the same thing end up happening.

That said, any checks for other causes and tips for getting water out of oil?

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Howdy,

I'm not sure you do.....water getting into the engine thru the exhaust is usually not enough to make the oil "milky" especially if you were able to start it easily without evidence of hydro-lock.

There isn't an easy path to the pan thru the exhaust ports unless you have a piston with a hole in it.

Ok, I'll bite, what's the "Rislone" supposed to do? I don't know any "Snake oil" that will remove water from oil any faster than just changing it. If by changing it you don't get what's in the bottom of the pan it'll take more than a few changes.

Some people suggest using some diesel (or other light petroleum solvent) to mix with the oil. That makes the oil less viscous and allows it to mix with the water more readily (makes a water-oil suspension actually) which you can then drain.....and then it may take a few "changes. I would use really light oil like 5W20 instead of diesel......diesel is a crummy lubricant.....

It really sounds like you have a leak from the cooling system somewhere that is making it's way into the oil....maybe the intake manifold and/or gasket, etc, leaking into the "valley"

Your best bet will be to pressurize the cooling system and rule out leaks. You should be able to pump it up to about 15psi and have it hold.

Regards,

Rick

It took a little bit of doing to get it started for the return trip but I didn't think anything of it. And when I finally did check the oil it was only about half a quart high. The engine just got built so I'm hoping there is no piston with a hole in it.

The Rislone (and Seafoam) were suggestions of the locals here. I've never been one to subscribe to Snake Oils, but I figured it couldn't be worse than water.

Before getting too much further I should probably get the correct equipment and learn how to pressurize the system. What I can't figure out is why this leak wouldn't have shown itself in the first 30 minutes of running (before putting it in the water) and why the oil level wouldn't have risen today if something was still leaking.

Also, what do you think about using ATF to help get the water out?

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

The Rislone (and Seafoam) were suggestions of the locals here. I've never been one to subscribe to Snake Oils, but I figured it couldn't be worse than water.

Yeah.....the "Snake oil" additives are pretty good for the people that sell them..........they're of limited value for the people that buy them....

To pressurize you'll need to isolate the cooling system by removing and capping the lines to each manifold/riser and the water line coming from the raw water pump.

You can then use air from an air compressor to do it. Just set the regulator to 20 psi or less.....connect it anywhere in the system and pressure it up. Put a simple 0-15 psi gage on it and a valve so you can turn off the air and see if it holds.


You can also listen around to see if you can tell where it is leaking.... It's not very hard.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Yeah.....the "Snake oil" additives are pretty good for the people that sell them..........they're of limited value for the people that buy them....

To pressurize you'll need to isolate the cooling system by removing and capping the lines to each manifold/riser and the water line coming from the raw water pump.

You can then use air from an air compressor to do it. Just set the regulator to 20 psi or less.....connect it anywhere in the system and pressure it up. Put a simple 0-15 psi gage on it and a valve so you can turn off the air and see if it holds.


You can also listen around to see if you can tell where it is leaking.... It's not very hard.

I figured it would involve an air compressor so I'll have to plan on pulling it out of the water at some point.

It just seems odd that it wouldn't leak at first and start leaking within five hours.

Out of curiosity, when an intake manifold leaks, where does it leak in to (combustion chamber, valley, etc.)?

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Out of curiosity, when an intake manifold leaks, where does it leak in to (combustion chamber, valley, etc.)?

Well, it leaks where it's either cracked or the gasket has failed. If it's the original manifold, it may have already had a crack or area of corrosion or spot on the gasket sealing surface that has only just now started to leak. There's no pressure to speak of on an entire (raw water) cooling system.....not much anyway......so a place where the gasket didn't seal well between the head and manifold might not leak right away.

It could very well be a head gasket or even a cracked head or block but that would usually leak right away.

You can speculate all day but putting a little pressure on the system will pinpoint it quickly.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Well, it leaks where it's either cracked or the gasket has failed. If it's the original manifold, it may have already had a crack or area of corrosion or spot on the gasket sealing surface that has only just now started to leak. There's no pressure to speak of on an entire (raw water) cooling system.....not much anyway......so a place where the gasket didn't seal well between the head and manifold might not leak right away.

It could very well be a head gasket or even a cracked head or block but that would usually leak right away.

You can speculate all day but putting a little pressure on the system will pinpoint it quickly.

The manifold is brand new since I ended up going with Vortec heads (had to switch from my old 12 bolt design). In this case I would be lucky if it were a leak of any sort since I'd just be going right back to the machine shop!

I'll see if I can't devise a way to get some pressure at the marina tomorrow, short of hauling my not-so-small compressor out there.

I'll probably be here with a few dumb questions later, since I've never done this test before.

Also, before I forget, what's your take on using ATF to get the last of the water out? Someone else suggested that and I thought I'd run it past you guys.

 

[ziggy]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

don't know if this will help or not. but here ya go...
http://www.boatfix.com/merc/Bullet/01/01_13.pdf

 

[Bondo]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

It just seems odd that it wouldn't leak at first and start leaking within five hours.

Ayuh,... There was No Load on it on the muffs,...
There Is a Load on it in the water....

Also, before I forget, what's your take on using ATF to get the last of the water out?

You don't need to use ATF, or any other snake oils,...
Just Find the Leak, Stop it, Change the oil,+ Run it....Hard...
When the oil comes up to Temp(under Load)....
The water will boil off,+ leave just the oil...

 

[JustJason]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

I'm finding out the hard the truth it the saying "just because you found it that way doesn't mean it's supposed to be that way".

I wonder what knucklehead came up with that one

I bought my current rig last year

What is said rig... Merc, VP, OMC??? 3 liter, 8.2 liter???

When the rebuild was done where the intake manifolds glued down with perfect seal or equivelant, and was the intake manifold torqued correctly?

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

don't know if this will help or not. but here ya go...
http://www.boatfix.com/merc/Bullet/01/01_13.pdf

This will help as I can print this out (along with the rest of this thread) and take it with me to the marina.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Ayuh,... There was No Load on it on the muffs,...
There Is a Load on it in the water....

Very true. Forgot to consider that.

You don't need to use ATF, or any other snake oils,...

Nuff said. As an aside, didn't "snake oil" actually work way back when it was actually snake oil?

Just Find the Leak, Stop it, Change the oil,+ Run it....Hard...
When the oil comes up to Temp(under Load)....
The water will boil off,+ leave just the oil...

That's the plan for today. I'll bring a computer and camera and hopefully be able to post while I work, possibly with pictures.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

I guess I'll reiterate that it't unlikely that you got water in the oil from the sloshing at the exhaust port on the back.

I had leaking riser gaskets on my previously installed OMC 460 King Kobra (yeah.....a REAL POS)

EVERY TIME I started it it would "hydrolock" and after a couple of tries, it would always start.

I had water on top of a couple of pistons every time I started it after being off for only 10-15 min or so.

If I shut it off for the night and came back the next day, it would start right up. Presumably after the little bit of water would slowly leak past the rings.

I ran it that way for all summer! I NEVER got "milky" water because it probably never had more than a half cup of water or so in the oil at any given time.

AND I ran that thing at WOT a LOT! that little bit of water in the oil would just evaporate out rather quickly. so I never really had very much in there at any given time.

You just don't get that much in there from the exhaust path (unless you have NO rings or a hole in a piston etc!!).

If you have water in there that makes the water milky, It's not only a LOT more, but it's getting in there from some where other than the exhaust path.

If you don't want to take your compressor, go to a auto parts store and get one of those portable tanks for air or get an empty 20lb "FREON" (R-134/410/22/etc) tank.....or better yet, an old 5 gallon propane tank.... . They work great. You just pump it up to about 150 psi and use it. You can put a cheapo gage and regulator on it too.


Good luck,

Rick

 

[jtybt]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

A crack or head gasket may not leak until the engine comes up to full operating temps. That won't happen until the engine is under load.

Another thing is the vortec intake manifold.. If you had the paper thick type, the water port/passages should have sealant around them.

Anything else you left out?

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

I wonder what knucklehead came up with that one



What is said rig... Merc, VP, OMC??? 3 liter, 8.2 liter???

When the rebuild was done where the intake manifolds glued down with perfect seal or equivelant, and was the intake manifold torqued correctly?

Ha ha. Said rig was a 1994 Merc 5.7L (#OF 276159) that got turned into a 383 by taking a 1999 truck block (#880 casting) a set of 906 vortec heads and all the other stuff to go from 350 to 383 (crank, dished pistons to keep compression down, etc.).

The machine shop installed the intake manifolds and I believe they used rubber gaskets on the runner ports and sealant on the china wall.

 

[jtybt]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Therte are no rubber intake manifold gaskets. Either the plastic with silicone ribs(which don't seem to be available anymore) or the thick paper type.

Might have to go back to your machine shop and tell them what's happening...or remove and inspect it your self.

I do all my own builds, not that I don't trust a machine shop, I can be more particular as I disassemble, clean and assemble my self.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

Therte are no rubber intake manifold gaskets. Either the plastic with silicone ribs(which don't seem to be available anymore) or the thick paper type.

Might have to go back to your machine shop and tell them what's happening...or remove and inspect it your self.

I do all my own builds, not that I don't trust a machine shop, I can be more particular as I disassemble, clean and assemble my self.

That shows about how much I know. From what I remember it was black and seemed a lot thicker than the typical paper gasket and it had blue (I think) around the passages. I think 27-807473A1 was the part number.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Oil in water...getting it out

I guess I'll reiterate that it't unlikely that you got water in the oil from the sloshing at the exhaust port on the back.

I had leaking riser gaskets on my previously installed OMC 460 King Kobra (yeah.....a REAL POS)

EVERY TIME I started it it would "hydrolock" and after a couple of tries, it would always start.

I had water on top of a couple of pistons every time I started it after being off for only 10-15 min or so.

If I shut it off for the night and came back the next day, it would start right up. Presumably after the little bit of water would slowly leak past the rings.

I ran it that way for all summer! I NEVER got "milky" water because it probably never had more than a half cup of water or so in the oil at any given time.

AND I ran that thing at WOT a LOT! that little bit of water in the oil would just evaporate out rather quickly. so I never really had very much in there at any given time.

You just don't get that much in there from the exhaust path (unless you have NO rings or a hole in a piston etc!!).

If you have water in there that makes the water milky, It's not only a LOT more, but it's getting in there from some where other than the exhaust path.

If you don't want to take your compressor, go to a auto parts store and get one of those portable tanks for air or get an empty 20lb "FREON" (R-134/410/22/etc) tank.....or better yet, an old 5 gallon propane tank.... . They work great. You just pump it up to about 150 psi and use it. You can put a cheapo gage and regulator on it too.


Good luck,

Rick

Rick,

Definitely not trying to get into a measuring contest with you. Most of you guys have probably forgotten many times more than I know at this point.

The only reason I suggested what I did at the outset was my welder had a boat with a similar setup - thru hulls sitting near the water line, being out on the lake all day with the engine off in big waves with a lot of weight in the stern. He said he was swimming most of the day and saw the water going in his exhaust tips then pouring out; didn't think anything of it. Had trouble getting it started and found milky oil back at the dock. Changed the oil until it cleared, stayed out of rough water with weight in the rear and had no more problems. Had this convo with him before the fishing trip I mentioned above, and at some point during the trip I was telling myself "I hope what happened to him won't happen to me". That's the only reason I went down this path.